<p>mikemac…The parents of this kid were indeed offered that option, but they turned it down. They not only want all that…they want their kid to be able to resume the current class in which he cheated!! Maybe next they’ll ask for the school board to present him an award. After all…if there’s nothing wrong with cheating why shouldn’t he be rewarded for his ingenuity?</p>
<p>Since this kid could not handle the course work without cheating, he should not be in the program. It is a good chance he would cheat again since 9th and 10th grade are not even the IB years. His course load is only going to get heavier.</p>
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<p>While it was crime ridden and had serious academic achievement issues…they did offer some APs…which all of those neighborhood kids didn’t take for one reason or another. </p>
<p>Thus, I’d think their situation and this are comparable. </p>
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<p>That is standard practice at many colleges…especially those with strict honor codes like UVA and Oberlin. </p>
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<p>At my NYC public magnet, most struggling students…including yours truly were given some “encouragement” to consider voluntarily transferring back to their zoned neighborhood high school. About 28% of my entering freshman class availed themselves of that option in my first two years there…many others including myself opted to laugh those teachers/admins off and to continue to struggle toward the graduation line. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if one was caught cheating…they can…and did expel students…even on the first offense if the case was judged to be severe enough to warrant it.</p>
<p>Wow, lots to respond to. This forum moves fast!</p>
<p>absweetmarie, thank you!</p>
<p>cobrat, man, I would LOVE to be told that you can still have a good chance at getting into a competitive college without loading up on honors/advanced classes. My daughter is a freshman and I have not been through the college application process, but I keep hearing how awful it is and how much harder it is to get into those top schools than when I was young. So if you tell me that a kid who can’t take any advanced classes at his school, can still land a spot in, say, UCLA, you will be my new best friend.</p>
<p>Wolverine – I don’t think this kid deserves special consideration. I think being given a warning for the first offense and then getting the serious punishment for the second, should be the rule for all the kids. And okay, you think all varieties of dishonesty should be given the same punishment. Do you feel that way about all varieties of criminal behavior? Trespassing, speeding, vandalism, should all be given the exact same punishment as terrorism, murder, arson? </p>
<p>mikemac, yes, I think Principal Hansen came up with a great solution. I’m sorry the dad didn’t accept it. (By the way, I’ve been wondering, who was it who called the papers? I can’t believe it was the dad; as everyone else perceived right away, publicity would be the last thing he’d want. I can’t believe it was the school district; this must have been taking up time this past week they’d rather have been spending on other things. Mysterious.) Bonnie Hansen, for the record, is a fabulous principal, very fairminded and really, genuinely interested in and caring about her students. She’s also a very humorous public speaker – the kids actually pay attention during assemblies. My daughter thinks she’s terrific.</p>
<p>Finally, I’m not defending this kid’s cheating! I think it was wrong, stupid, and speaks poorly of his judgment. I’m just saying I think the punishment was draconian. And I think Ms. Hansen recognized that too. I think the school, if not the school district, is probably going to be issuing a new and clearer policy on cheating before very long.</p>
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<p>Do you honestly believe that these scenarios are equivalent?</p>
<p>Thanks hops_scout. You beat me to the punch. C’mon dustypig…now who’s drawing parallels where they don’t exist?</p>
<p>As I mentioned earlier, if this student and/or his parents didn’t like the academic integrity policy of the school then don’t sign the policy and don’t take the class(es). No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to. If he’s so bright and destined for Ivy or Ivy-like selectivity and greatness, then send the little snowflake to private school. Daddy is a lawyer (shocker there) so money should be no object to get Junior where he “deserves” to be. If not…maybe try homeschooling. </p>
<p>In any case, don’t sign a policy letter agreeing to abide by it and then complain about it being “too harsh” when YOU CHEAT and are now subject to it. Would Daddy the lawyer be filing lawsuits on behalf of your child if they cheated? I seriously doubt it. More and more schools are going to a zero tolerance policy on cheating, and I agree 100% with those that do.</p>
<p>hops_scout, Wolverine said:</p>
<p>“Yes, I do think they’re the same thing. It’s called cheating. There isn’t a sliding scale. You fail the class…period.”</p>
<p>So I was wondering if he/she would also say “it’s called crime. There isn’t a sliding scale. You go to prison for 30 years to life . . . period.”</p>
<p>I don’t get what is so awful about saying that there are some behaviors that are worse than others and that deserve harsher punishment.</p>
<p>And, now I have to go – it is dinnertime in California! But I will check back later. You should all be very sorry for keeping me reading this discussion all afternoon instead of doing the work I was supposed to be doing! ;)</p>
<p>What happened to the value in integrity and hard work? It’s sad.</p>
<p>Lets just hang the kid and be done with it.</p>
<p>Lets get one thing clear. Unless someone is an athletic star - it is impossible to get into a top 20 school if they don’t take classes considered rigorous by their school. So if a school offers 2 APs and someone could not take them is a totally different case than a school offered 20 and a student took 1. The only way they can get away with it is if there is zero weighting in their school of AP classes and the school equates all classes to be of same value when they turn in their recommendations.</p>
<p>dustypig…Enjoy your dinner!! Don’t worry about the unfinished work…good quality spirited debate is always an allowable substitute. :)</p>
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<p>No, I wouldn’t. Here’s why. For varying levels of crime there are specific definitions AND specified punishments for each, and judges/juries are charged to operate within those definitions and punishments. If the school’s Academic Integrity Policy was written such that it differentiated between various cheating offenses and had a prescribed punishment for each level we’d be having a different discussion. I would COMPLETELY disagree with such a policy, but if that were what the school, the student, and the student’s parents had agreed to by SIGNING the document then so be it.</p>
<p>But that’s not what the situation is here, is it? If your schools AI policy is anything like ours here, it specifically states that there is no differentiation between cheating “a little” or “a lot”. It specifically mentions ANY degree of plagiarism, copying of test answers, possession of old tests, etc. and will result in immediate dismissal from the class and a grade of “F”. Additionally, if it’s an Honors student they are removed from the Honors program. Hmmm…sounds familiar doesn’t it? If your school’s policy doesn’t spell it out that plainly, then I absolutely agree with you that it needs to be rewritten…to include all of it but not to change the penalty.</p>
<p>You keep saying you’re not defending or condoning his actions, but in effect you are. The student knowingly broke the AI policy of the school, was caught doing so, and is subject to the same penalty as any child would be. Where was your outrage at the policy when you signed the letter? </p>
<p>“Draconian”?? Really?? I’ll ask again…how is this kid’s life “ruined”? You act like it’s a foregone conclusion that this kid is Ivy material or at least “selective” school material. How could you possibly know that? If he cannot make it through 10th grade Honors English without cheating, do you honestly think he’ll flourish in IB level classes or at a selective university? What I can tell you, for certain, is that any student who chooses to cheat (to any degree) diminishes the efforts of every other student who follows the rules. Even if admission to a “selective” school were critical to a successful life (btw…it isn’t) this kid doesn’t deserve to have that consideration. And it’s nobody’s fault but HIS.</p>
<p>Wolverine, yes cheating is bad and wrong. No one’s arguing there. But to say cheating is cheating is like saying killing is killing, so if I kill someone in self defense it’s the same as premeditated murder. Or even that premeditated murder is the same as serial killing. Or an act of passion is the same as premeditated murder. They’re different and as such should be treated differently. The world isn’t black and white and you can’t treat anything that’s put under one label the same that’s called stereotyping which leads to discrimination which leads to hatred which leads to genocide so under your logic you stereotyping cheating students should be treated like genocide. Do you see how ridiculous that is? Yes, cheating on homework assignments is wrong period, but hacking a school’s computer to find the answers to all the final exams and sending them to the entire student body (which happened to my brother’s class) is worse. You do realize that, right?</p>
<p>Also, you said the kid didn’t “deserve
to be with the kids who didn’t cheat” or something along those lines, but that’s assuming the others haven’t cheated. As was stated earlier, up to 98% of students cheat so chances are he isn’t the only one. And yeah, he got caught and the others didn’t, but that doesn’t mean he’s worse than them or doesn’t deserve to be in the same class as them. </p>
<p>Sidenote, I’m curious, are you either catholic, been in the military, or were raised by a military family?</p>
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<p>Umm… no. Self defense is not an intended act. Are you going to saying that cheating on homework is “unintentional?” </p>
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<p>And up to 99% of students have never cheated. Think about that for a second…</p>
<p>xleading…Wow…by holding cheaters (of any level) accountable for their actions I’m somehow making the leap to genocide? Forgive me if I can’t quite make that “logical” leap with you. :)</p>
<p>Did you read any of my last post to dustypig? I said:</p>
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<p>Which part of that was confusing? We can disagree on what we THINK the policy should be, but that doesn’t change what the policy IS…a policy that the student and his parents agreed to and thus are subject to. If I get ticketed for speeding when I knew what the posted limit was, should I not be subject to the fine just because I think the speed limit should be higher? Heck no!! Whiners and Monday morning quarterbacks aside, he has no leg to stand on.</p>
<p>As to your sidenote…why would you assume that a well-defined sense of morality is exclusive to Catholicism or to the military?</p>
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<p>You keep ignoring the fact that this was not the extent of the policy; it also included a two-strikes addendum. You can’t wish it away, Wolverine, the two-strikes document was attached to the pledge. The administration admitted it, and revised its punishment to reflect it. </p>
<p>Either the two-strikes policy applies or it doesn’t. If it applies, then the administration has no authority to remove the student from the class on the first offense.</p>
<p>The few hundred words I’ve read regarding this case make me wonder if there is not more to the story. Here is what I would like to see, as a start, before presuming to judge: </p>
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<li>The text of the document the mother and son signed. (Anyone on this thread have a link to that? I couldn’t find it on the high school website; yes, I looked, I am that goofy.) </li>
<li>The document that allegedly accompanies the academic honesty agreement and that allegedly contradicts it on at least one point. (Anyone have that document?)</li>
<li>The text of the academic integrity policy in full. </li>
<li>Precisely what Mr. Berghouse is contending vis-a-vis vague and inconsistent application of the school’s academic honesty policy.</li>
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<p>Without being privy to all of this and without knowing much more than I know based on reading a couple of articles and watching one news video featuring the father, I do not feel qualified to judge the merits of the case. I’m frankly surprised that more people are not maintaining an open and skeptical mind. I can’t imagine there are many people on this thread who have NOT seen a story get mangled or sensationalized by the media.</p>
<p>Regardless of the merits of the case, based on viewing a two-minute-long TV news clip featuring the dad, I would not call him some of the names I’ve seen him called. (He has apparently received a number of harassing phone calls, one of which was played on the TV spot.) Nor would I presume, based on a few short articles and a brief TV spot, to understand his motives. He is an actual person, not a stereotype! Do some of you who are going straight to the arrogant attorney clich</p>
<p>^i agree wholeheartedly. </p>
<p>Wolverine, that was my point. I don’t see how you can say all levels of cheating deserve the same thing (you said in your post you would STRONGLY disagree with them) when they are clearly different (though all wrong). My point with the genocide is that all of those are varying degrees of stereotyping which are clearly different though all wrong. A sexist is bad but better than someone who kills women because they hate all of them just like cheating on homework is bad but better than cheating on a test. There are grey area in life and yes, they’re not white, but guess what, they’re not black either. </p>
<p>My sidenote wasn’t because they are the only things that have a strong sense of morality (I think most people have a strong sense of morality) but rather the black and white interpretation of this combined with the fact you assume the school’s policy was clearly laid out, meaning you tend to side with authority, and both of those tend to point to Catholicism or military background.</p>
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<p>There are different levels of cheating? Really? I can’t wait for this explanation…</p>
<p>xleading…That’s was my point…in my eyes they’re not different. Cheating is generally not a criminal activity (unless there’s some sort of physical theft involved) it’s an honors/ethics/morals violation and I don’t happen to think there are gray areas there. I don’t think you can “only cheat a little” anymore than I think someone can “only be a little pregnant”. Once you cross the line, it’s crossed…period. Call me old fashioned (you wouldn’t be the first or the last), I wear that badge with honor (pun fully intended).</p>
<p>Honor, integrity, ethics…these aren’t character traits that someone can grow overnight. Either they’re instilled at a young age and their importance is reinforced often, or they may as well not exist at all. If you don’t clearly draw lines, you don’t know when they’ve been crossed. </p>
<p>I happen to firmly believe in personal responsibility and that actions have consequences…preferably consequences with teeth. Failure of the course involved is the minimum punishment I’d find appropriate. I don’t care if it’s homework, a test, a project…there’s no difference to me. I think kids (with the inevitable few exceptions) will live up to the standards you set for them. Why do so many people insist on setting the bar at such a low level? Maybe my view makes me too much of an idealist. If so…sue me. I hear there’s a lawyer in Redwood that’ll jump at the chance. :)</p>
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<p>Yes, Wolverine86, your position on the matter has been made plain! What Mr. Berghouse seems to be arguing is that his child’s school has not, in fact, made its own policies crystal clear. He is also arguing that the punishment is out of proportion to the offense. You disagree. He has a right to his opinion. The fact that he is arguing, even litigating, that opinion does not mean he lacks integrity, honors or ethics. </p>
<p>What I object to in your postings is not your point of view but the suggestion that you are the guardian of the moral high ground. It is possible to believe that cheating is wrong and still maintain that it is more reasonable to give a person (especially a 15-year-old person) a warning on a first offense rather than to kick that person out of a class. I hold this opinion. It does not make me unethical or dishonorable, and it does not make me or anyone who agrees with me a champion of unethical and dishonorable behavior.</p>