<p>Some people want a cheater to go down in flames, regardless of age, regardless of circumstances, regardless of whether the punishment is reasonable, regardless of whether the consequences were clearly provided ahead of time, and regardless of whether the person had a realistic choice whether to agree to the consequences or not. Some of you clearly fall into that category.</p>
<p>I prefer that children, and public school students, be treated in a reasonable manner with regard to their first instance of cheating, that school policy setting forth the consequences be fair and clearly spelled out and carried out, and that students not be forced to sign ambiguous documents in order to take a course they need.</p>
<p>Yes, I do want exactly that. Why? Because there are no circumstances where cheating is Ok. Therefore, immediate dismissal from the class is reasonable. The consequences were clearly provided ahead of time, and the student agreed to it by signing (as we’ve already discussed). Ambiguity (if there was any) should’ve been addressed before signing.</p>
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<p>Consequences are fair (applied to all students) and clearly spelled out (previously discussed). Regarding a “course they need”, he doesn’t need Honors English. He “needs” English credit, which he will still get in the regular level English. He doesn’t “need” to be in the IB track, he “wants” to be in it. He will graduate with the same diploma as the vast majority of students in his HS…one with no IB certification on it. Don’t try to flower it up and make this student out to be a victim. He “needed” to follow the school’s no cheating policy…and didn’t. He “wanted” to cut corners instead of applying himself the way a top-notch student should…and it bit him in the butt. He “needs” to step up and start acting like a responsible young man…but I bet he won’t.</p>
<p>Hi, this is my first post on this forum. (I came here looking for advice on the SAT subject tests and saw this discussion highlighted and got drawn in.) My daughter is a freshman at the same high school as this kid. I don’t know the kid, his father, or anyone else involved (except the principal). But I can say that my daughter is in the freshman ICAP (Honors/Advanced) English class and she has to do these journal entries too. I would not call them useless busywork. I think they serve two purposes: first, to prove the kids actually read the book, and second, to have them practice writing as much as possible (since the IB program, which these classes are preparing them for, is very writing-heavy). The journal entries shouldn’t take long to do – like I said, they’re largely to make sure the kids are keeping up in their reading, because otherwise many of them would likely procrastinate and then have to read the whole book in one weekend when it came time to do the final paper. (The book for the freshman class was The Odyssey.)</p>
<p>My guess as to this kid is that he probably hadn’t done the reading – they are assigned big chunks at a time, and many kids probably find it pretty hard going slogging through 70 pages of Homer on a Sunday afternoon. So he copied a friend’s journal entry. My first thought when I heard about it was that he should be disciplined for stupidity as much as for cheating – how could he possibly think that the teacher, who reads all the kids’ journal entries, wouldn’t notice that two of them were identical? He should have just taken a zero on the assignment.</p>
<p>However, I do think that the policy of dropping the kid from the ICAP/IB program for a first offense, especially an offense of copying homework, is too harsh a punishment. I don’t buy this “cheating is cheating” argument. There are mild examples of cheating, like this, and serious ones, like buying a copy of a test online or paying someone else to take it for you. For the person who said if you get caught speeding, you pay the price and that’s fair, would you say the same thing if the price for speeding was the same as for murder? Not every crime is equal to every other.</p>
<p>Kicking him out of the IB program forever was too harsh. That would have killed not only his chance at an Ivy, but also his chance at just about any competitive school – since at this highschool, you’re either in IB classes or you’re in very basic classes with kids who are probably not college bound. I liked what Bay said about how we should remember that these are children and it’s our job to teach them, not throw the book at them if they have no prior record. I think a good consequence would have been a zero on the assignment and a warning that the next offense would be getting kicked out of the program.</p>
<p>That may be the case at your HS, but that’s certainly not the norm. Just because a student doesn’t take AP or IB classes they’re “probably not college bound”?? Get serious!! At our local HS the graduating class had 465 students, of which around 400 are attending college. Less than half of the students took any Honors/AP classes. Implying that those who don’t take advanced classes aren’t college material isn’t only demeaning…it’s just plain wrong.</p>
<p>Again, why do you insist that the school is somehow “ruining” this kid’s chances at an Ivy or any competitive school? Did the school cheat? This kid did this all to himself!! Do you seriously believe that a student’s life is ruined if they don’t attend HYPSM or some other fancy elite LAC? You do realize what an incredibly small fraction of overall university attendees go to one of your “elite” schools don’t you? Wake up!! Cheating is cheating…there aren’t any gray areas. I certainly hope your child has a clearer view of what’s right and what’s wrong…and chooses to succeed (even if it’s at a…gasp…lowly public school) based on the quality of THEIR OWN work, not someone else’s.</p>
<p>Whoa, Wolverine, calm down. First off, yes of course I was referring to only this highschool. Why would I be talking about “the norm?” This highschool is what is relevant here. And you’ll have to take my word for it about the IB classes. But this is a public highschool with over 2000 students, two-thirds of whom are from families where English is not the first language and many of whose parents are undocumented immigrants. This school administration is spending a lot of its resources just trying to get many of these kids to not drop out. The Family Resource Center regularly sends out emails asking if people can donate things like PE uniforms for kids who are literally flunking PE because they can’t afford $20 for the uniforms. So yeah, I’m not being “demeaning” by saying that they are not going to college.</p>
<p>I don’t know why you’re ranting about HYPSM (again, I’m new here – does that mean Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford MIT?). Do you seriously think that a kid could get into any competitive college without having taken ANY of the advanced classes at his highschool? I’m not talking about “most rigorous” here – I’m saying that kicking him out of the IB program would mean he would be barred from every single advanced-level class, because that’s all they have there.</p>
<p>I hope your child has a good sense of right and wrong too, but I hope just as much that they have a good sense of proportion and of fine distinctions on these issues, because it seems like they won’t get that from you. :)</p>
<p>That’s either serious hyperbole considering I’ve known dozens of neighborhood kids who never took a single AP/IB course, went to our crime-ridden NYC zoned high school, and ended up at some very respectable colleges like Tufts, Columbia, etc…or you’re high school is far worse than my NYC neighborhood zoned high school where the graduation/academic achievement rate was so low it’s going to be shuttered permanently in the next few years. </p>
<p>I also don’t agree with the “kicking him out of the IB program forever was too harsh” considering expulsion…even on the first offense was on the table and practiced at both my Catholic elementary school and at my NYC public magnet. </p>
<p>In fact…cheating is one of the few offenses where the officials at my high school would have legal sanction to expel students at their discretion on the first offense and in effect…force you back to your zoned neighborhood high school back in the '90s…or now…some less competitive public high school in the NYC area willing to take him/her. </p>
<p>Yes, everyone has a right to a public school education. However, no one said it had to be at a specific high school/program…especially one where admission was determined by some form of academic assessment…and usually an agreement that students won’t cheat on any of their assignments during their high school careers.</p>
<p>Colleges evaluate students in the context of their opportunities. A kid in a crime ridden NYC school that does not offer APs will be ok for college admissions. A kid who has the opportunity to take AP/IB classes and does not will not be ok for top schools. The two situations aren’t even comparable.</p>
<p>Actually, yes the government says which public high schools you may attend, at least where I live here in California. In our district, you are absolutely not permitted to attend certain high schools unless you can prove, by several pieces of evidence, that you reside within that district. Otherwise, you must apply and be granted permission to attend a high school outside of your district, and your application will not be granted if space is not available.</p>
<p>Bay…No, I’m not a teacher. Nor am I a school administrator. I’m simply someone who was raised to believe there is a distinct line drawn between what’s right and what’s wrong and I cannot stand to see cheaters prosper in any aspect of life. I have taught my own children that being responsible and taking responsibility for your own actions are essential character traits in quality people. I don’t believe in making excuses or blaming others (you may have sensed that from my previous posts).</p>
<p>If this were a case of a student’s word against a teacher’s word where the facts were in doubt, it might be a different matter. But it’s not!! The kid cheated, his parents know he cheated, and they’ve cooked up this half-baked reason to try and get their son out of the mess he made FOR HIMSELF!! Why should this kid be allowed to stay on an advanced track with all the other students who didn’t cheat? He’s not being kicked out of school. He’ll graduate and will go on to college somewhere, and if he’s anywhere near as bright as dear old Dad thinks he is then he’ll be successful. Some of life’s best lessons are the most painful ones, and far better he learn now that this type of behavior has consequences. You want to claim that this will ruin his life, I choose to think this is a necessary course correction in this young man’s life.</p>
<p>Wolverine, do you think there is a difference between copying homework and stealing the answer key to a final? Should they both be punished the same way?</p>
<p>dustypig…Please enlighten me. Tell me exactly which levels of cheating are appropriate according to your sliding scale? Why does this kid deserve to get any special consideration? He had the same opportunities as your child and every other child at that school, and he chose to cut corners and cheat? What do you plan to tell every other student in the IB program there…that they’re foolish because they haven’t taken advantage of what you perceive to be “wiggle room” in what constitutes cheating?</p>
<p>There is indeed fine distinctions and proportions on many issues, but cheating isn’t one of them. And don’t worry, my children do know the difference between right and wrong…and they got it from both my wife and I. :)</p>
<p>alwaysleah…Yes, I do think they’re the same thing. It’s called cheating. There isn’t a sliding scale. You fail the class…period. If you had earned the privilege (NOTE: I said privilege…not right) of being in the Honors/IB type program, you just lost that privilege. Pretty darn sure the definition of Honor doesn’t include any accomodation for cheating.</p>