<p>xleading…Indeed, one of us is missing something in the reading. What I said was that if there aren’t clear lines drawn, then one doesn’t know when a line has been crossed. Exactly how is that insulting your morals? I was simply responding to your (and others) criticism of MY belief system by explaining why I find it important to not have shades of gray. If you choose to incorrectly read it as something else and get defensive about it, that’s an issue you need to address with yourself.</p>
<p>Regarding the possibility that they “misread” the policy…sure…it’s possible. But IF that’s the case, why did they not argue that at the disciplinary hearing? It’s just as possible that they knew exactly what the new policy was (the one they signed…not the “attached” other document). As someone else suggested, it would be interesting to see the actual documents themselves but I doubt it would clarify much. Those that want to see ambiguity will find it and those that don’t…won’t.</p>
<p>pacificvista…There you go again with the sweeping generalities. How do you have any clue whether this kid is or isn’t the only one who cheats? I’m not nearly so naive as to believe he’s the only one in his school, but he GOT CAUGHT!! What exactly do you expect the school to do? Punish students who haven’t been caught cheating? That’s a foolish argument to say he’s been singled out because he’s not the only one cheating. Just the opposite in fact. He was caught along with 3 friends, and they were all issued the same punishment. The only difference (so far) is the lawsuit.</p>
<p>BTW…neither of you opted to answer the yes/no questions. I apologize for the black/white nature of them, but I’d be curious to know your answers.</p>
<p>Actually, because the school was so strict…the teacher would have done an investigation. If it was found the plagiarist did it on his/her own and the other two students didn’t know about it, the plagiarist would be expelled and assuming the the other two students didn’t know about the plagiarist’s actions strongly warned about being careful. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if it was found they did know about the plagiarist’s actions…it is possible they could all be expelled…plagiarist for his/her actions…and the other two for knowingly acting as accessories by not reporting him/her. A suspension would be the very minimum punishment for first offenders. </p>
<p>In short, most Catholic schools…and many other schools tended to take a very hard line when it comes to cheating…even on homework. </p>
<p>Moreover, even in the '80s…almost all the families who sent their kids to such schools strongly supported such policies and if their kid was found to have cheated and let off lightly with a suspension…the kid’s likely to have much more to worry about in the punishment department from his/her parents…especially if they’re religious. </p>
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<p>Being “too rambunctious in class”. Since this school is one of the more laxer ones…it means making an over-the-top excessive noise/running around during classtime or during Mass that would have resulted in notations on public school grade/conduct reports. Knew of only 2 kids who were tossed out for this…but their behaviors were such that they’d have been suspended for repeated acts in public school in the same period. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I myself and another student 8+ years prior to me was tossed out of another Catholic School in first grade for being "too rambunctious. Only here…the standard was far more strict and entailed behaviors such as fidgeting, forgetting to raise one’s hand before speaking too many times, or other behaviors that would normally be tolerated as normal behavior to be expected from 5-6 year olds in most public schools of that time. In that instance…even my first grade teacher at that school agreed with my parents that the principal’s penalty was too stiff considering my age. </p>
<p>Ironically, both that other student and I ended up at the same public urban magnet high school and went on to highly respectable higher ed institutions…like Annapolis in his case.</p>
<p>I really feel for this student. He made a mistake. No doubt he would have accepted his punishment, learned from it, and been back in the IB program next year with limited angst and harmful consequences. Instead, his father could not let go of the technicality by which he felt he should be able to acquit his son. The father could not let it go, and ultimately he is winding up hurting his son much more than he would have been hurt by the original school decision.</p>
<p>I bet the student is very embarassed and distressed by his father’s actions.</p>
<p>Considering this same student complained about the “Tyranny” of his punishment on FB right after having been caught and received punishment…I wouldn’t be so sure about that.</p>
<p>"The issue depends on whether not being in the classes this semester and dropping down to a lower level will destroy this semester’s GPA or if there is no difference. Once it is destroyed it cant be recovered. Being a parent, I can see me fighting the issue tooth and nail if a semester of higher level GPA is going to be lost irrespective of my values. "</p>
<p>So he deserves the weighted GPA even though he cheated to get it?? And you would fight to maintain your kid’s weighted GPA even if he/she cheated?? Wow, I just don’t understand that thinking at all, I literally cannot wrap my mind around it… The one fact we know for sure - he cheated. So whatever punishment they decide upon, I would assume his grade would/should be affected dramatically.</p>
<p>Yes. It is one class vs 6-7 classes that may be part of the package.</p>
<p>If you lose the weightage of one semester of classes, it is pretty much a death sentence. I as a parent could not care less what the rest of the world thinks about it if I felt this would seriously curtail the kid’s future prospects.</p>
<p>The schools with the worst level of cheating have been shut down and the employees that were involved in the cheating are in the process of being fired or are resigning.</p>
<p>And, of course, forgetting that the root cause in this hypothetical or this case under discussion is the act of cheating by the kids in question.</p>
<p>Moreover, if that IB program was anything like the one my older cousin attended 20 odd years ago or my public magnet high school…they were often viewed as a privilege students earned through some sort of academic evaluation/examination and could be lost for serious misconduct…including cheating. Not a right.</p>
I have read thread after thread on CC about mistakes that kids make, be it in high school or college. The experts chime in (those who have managed to hide or explain away their child’s indiscretions). Many times the advice is to “lawyer-up.” So I really don’t understand the scorn for the father who sued the high school. </p>
<p>I thought that when the school backed down the principal was admitting her error.
Slipshod administration allows two different discipline policies to be circulated, which was apparently what happened.</p>
<p>If the statement did not come across clearly - I could not care less what ANYONE else thinks about it. One class is ignorable, one semester is not. So if the rules are not written in stone, they need to be fought to be changed until they are written in stone.</p>
<p>I would have probably donated a bunch of money to the school instead though!</p>
<p>Not necessarily. There has been increasing cases of schools backing down simply because they cannot afford to litigate the cases…even when the parent suing the school has no case or an extremely weak one. </p>
<p>Not very different from many corporations/businesses which settle dubious cases because the cost of litigating would be much more than the settlement even if they prevailed in court.</p>
<p>Slipshod parenting allows children to EVER think that cheating is an acceptable means to and end. Trying to shift the blame and responsibility from the student and the parents to the administration is laughable. How exactly do you envision the conversation in that student’s household transpiring? “But Dad…I thought the school policy said it was Ok for me to cheat once, otherwise I wouldn’t have done it”.</p>
<p>Texaspg, how many times would you fight to exonerate your kid from admitted cheating? Serious question. Would you cover up any cheating, or do you have a sliding scale? Would you do the same if your child was involved in criminal activity outside of school? Because it would absolutely also screw up his/her future. I genuinely want to know at what point you would draw a line in the sand and decide your child needed to face the consequences of his/her actions. And do you genuinely think your child absolutely “deserves” this future, regardless of what it takes for him/her to get it (or for you to “get it” for him/her).</p>
<p>And I believe in the case in question, it was just the one class.</p>
<p>Wolverine86, exactly on the conversation, what a joke.</p>
<p>I think someone mentioned crime and punishment. If the punishment applied to a single class (go down to the lower level class this semester) I would not lift a finger. If there is no GPA impact because the current classes and lower level classes have the same scale, would not lift a finger. OTOH, I would get involved if 7 classes had weighted GPA and a journal entry is all it took for the school to say it is cheating to lower the overall GPA by 0.14 by the time of graduation (7 classes on average reduce GPA by 0.02 x7 if the scale is 4 vs 5), which in a competitive school can be a difference of 5% in rankings. Forget Ivies, in Texas that means you can’t get into a state flagship anymore.</p>
<p>So I would get involved if it means a 5% drop in rankings. How many times would I help my kid is a different question altogether. There is a point when everyone has to let go. Age 15 is not it.</p>
<p>texaspg…You seem to indicate that you think failing the class in question would be an appropriate punishment. Let me ask you this.</p>
<p>Situation A: A student in a regular level class copies homework, is caught, and under the prescribed punishment fails the class. If the class is required for graduation, the student will obviously have to re-take the class, and GPA will be somewhat affected. If I understand you correctly, you’re not opposed to that.</p>
<p>Situation B: A student in an Honors level class copies homework, is caught, and under the prescribed punishment fails the class. Unfortunately for this student, the Honors class is required for entry into the IB program, and failure of the class thus disqualifies him/her from said program. “Potential” GPA ramifications are greater since this student won’t be taking weighted classes.</p>
<p>Are you really saying that the actions of the student in Situation B are worth defending simply because the “domino effect” of cheating in class B is more profound than the cheating in class A? The students in question committed the same offense and suffered the same punishment. This is exactly why you can’t consider each case of cheating individually. If you cheated at all, you fail the class. I don’t care if you copied homework, looked at someone else’s test paper, or stole the whole dang test. It doesn’t make a difference. YOU CHEATED…PERIOD. If your bad judgment also happens to occur in a class that leads to additional follow-on consequences…too bad. They chose poorly…(Indiana Jones reference completely intended).</p>
<p>Wolverine,
I find your approach to raising children quite frightening. If your child were caught cheating and his school imposed no penalty for the first offense, what would you do about it?</p>
<p>wolverine - What I am presenting is hypothetical. I have heard the refrain cheating is cheating is cheating. All I am saying is that I have thought about what this parent did, and thought about what I would do if I was in his shoes. Everyone is clear when it comes to an issue but it gets really muddled when it impacts them personally and what they would do in their own situation. </p>
<p>Consider this - what if this only happened because the specific teacher in question is a person that thinks all rules have to be followed strictly and applied every rule and took it to the extreme while the other 6 teachers never even read the kids journals and all it is to them is a checkoff with no value? What if the journal itself has no grading value other than ensuring the kid is reading the book and for all you know everyone else has been reading the Cliff’s notes to fill in the journal?</p>