<p>So cheating is justified if the student feels the assignment wasn’t worth their time? Who gets to decide this? You would condone your child knowingly cheating if, in the his/her mind, he/she didn’t feel there was enough “value” in the assignment? And if “nobody else” was reading the assigned book, your kid shouldn’t have to either? And you’re worried about what college your kid gets into? That’s the least of your worries, I fear.</p>
<p>I have a 14 yr old who doesn’t think there is any purpose to ANY of his schoolwork. He would have a field day with your guidelines.</p>
<p>Bay…If that were the case, my child would indeed receive punishment at home. Loss of phone/computer privileges, driving privileges, etc. would all be appropriate for a high school aged student. Additionally, if I knew that my child’s school allowed cheating with no repercussions at all (even for a first offense) you bet your butt I’d be raising that issue at every school/parent organizational meeting I could. Raising a child in any home where bad behavior is patently excused is frightening. Actions have consequences…although maybe not in your home. If so, that’s your choice. Raise your child as you see fit. Mine are doing extremely well thank you.</p>
<p>squidge - I also have a 14 year old who just the other day explained the intent of why it says leave mechanical pencil at home on the SAT hall ticket but why it is ok to take it when I have to yell just follow the darn instructions. What I expect and instruct my kid to do vs what I am WILLING to do when said kid gets into real trouble are two entirely different things.</p>
<p>Texaspg, the understanding of how much it would affect a child in texas is clearly creating a difference in our view vs squidge and wolverine’s lol. I totally understand, getting rid of the bump in GPA at my highschool would’ve put any student in the bottom 75% of the class assuming they got 100’s in all their classes. No chance at UT, barley any hope at A&M and OU if you don’t ace your sats/acts, and I would probably cry from laughing if I heard they applied to Rice. And all because of one mistake you could’ve made as early as freshman year hardly seems fair. </p>
<p>Yes, children need to learn a lesson, but that lesson can be taught without ruining a child’s future. A zero on the assignment the first time seems perfectly fair to me. After that more serious ramifications are fine by me, but getting kicked out of all AP classes forever could literally take a kid from UT to UNT, which hardly fits. And to kick them out for a year could still bring them down substantially, though they could probably get into A&M or OU…maybe.</p>
<p>Maybe you should learn to read. This kid wasn’t “kicked out of AP classes forever.” He cheated on work for a class because he apparently isn’t able to keep up. Maybe he shouldn’t be in the class to begin with…</p>
<p>Hops, I was referring to wolverine’s hypothetical a couple of posts back. Sorry I didn’t make that clear. And originally he wasn’t going to be able to return to the ib program, though they did change that.</p>
<p>Edit: and in Texas it’s very common for kids to cheat their way through on daily work because they need the bump to have a shot at a decent college. Which is wrong, but if you don’t play the game you risk ruining your future.</p>
<p>xleading…Cheating is not a mistake. It is not accidental, nor is a function of a physical or a mental error. It is an overt, premeditated, unethical act. Don’t sugarcoat it by calling it a mistake, because it wasn’t.</p>
<p>I’m sure all the graduates of UNT and its present student body really appreciate your opinion of their school. Many students have been and will be proud to be graduates of UNT (or any other school you choose to malign), particularly if they earned that degree BASED ON THEIR OWN WORK. I don’t care if someone is a Harvard grad…if they cheated to gain it, they didn’t earn it and they don’t deserve it.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wow…and you guys question my view of ethics/morals/honor? So cheating is considered “playing the game” in your world?</p>
<p>“I have a 14 yr old who doesn’t think there is any purpose to ANY of his schoolwork.”</p>
<p>If you look at the above statement, you get a window into what teenagers think. It might come as a shock to squidge but most teenagers get this attitude at some point. They push the boundaries and see what they can get away with and it almost has nothing to do with their capabilities. I don’t think the cheating was due to not being able to hack it as much as having the attitude what is the point which results in ignoring the work. There is simply a lot of busy work in public high schools and sometimes kids fall prey to side influences.</p>
<p>Cheating IS a mistake. It’s typically not done as a premeditated thing the first time, it’s done as a spur of the moment act of desperation. And many regret it. I consider that a mistake. If they do it repeatedly, then its more grave than the word “mistake” connotes, but I’d still say it fits the qualifications of a mistake. And everyone makes mistakes, even you. I find it hard to believe you’ve never done anything you’ve ever regretted in your life, especially in your youth. </p>
<p>I apologize for selling graduates of UNT short, my point is more that it can severely limit your college choices (UNT grads will acknowledge that UT is ranked higher) so overall, fewer succeed. That’s not to say nobody does, it’s simply an interpretation of what the college rankings are for. </p>
<p>And yes, it’s considered part of the game at my highschool. Yes that’s wrong, just like I said, but you know what? Life sucks and life isn’t fair. A lot of people refuse to cheat and suffer because of it and some choose to cheat and get ahead because of it. It’d be awesome if the people interviewing people for a job had some innate knowledge of whether or not someone cheated in school, but they don’t, so that harvard grad has an automatic advantage over the UNT grad. And yes, I choose to believe karma will bite that harvard grad in the butt later in life, but not everyone does and they cheat to get ahead and many of them succeed because of it. Sucks, but it’s all part of the game.</p>
<p>Hops, don’t think all grads from Texas are the same. I can only speak to my schools, and they are in Texas. I bet you it’s the same nation-wide.</p>
<p>xleading…Yes, I have made many mistakes in my life, and I’ve made decisions I regret. Everyone has. But I’ve never made unethical decisions. And please stop with all the flowery hyperbole. Exactly how many “spur of the moment decisions” did this student make while copying his classmate’s homework? If you consider not attending a “selective” university as having one’s life ruined, I truly wonder how your view of the world got so messed up. How can you admit something is wrong but then casually dismiss it? It’s no wonder we have so many young adults in this country that think they’re entitled to whatever they want without having to earn it, and that rules don’t apply to them.</p>
<p>Uhm, probably one. I mean, assuming it’s a mistake he regrets, he was probably just too focused over how ****ed his parents would be if he didn’t turn in the homework to actually think through what he was doing.</p>
<p>I can admit something wrong then casually dismiss it because I choose not to judge those who do it. I choose not to do it but don’t begrudge those who do because I understand where they’re coming from. And I understand a lot of them will regret it later and they don’t need me judging them and making it worse. </p>
<p>And don’t go and play the “oh your generation has such skewed morals” **** because guess why? We’re pushed by our parents, aka your generation, to get into that selective school. Parents think they were/are perfect and expect their kids to live up to that or do better. Kids are pushed to their limits to “live up to their true potential,” and it screws people up. The number of kids I’ve seen cut off from their parents for not getting into a more selective school is completely ridiculous. It causes kids to cut corners like cheating. So yes, we may handle the stress wrong, but it’s not entirely “my generation’s” fault. </p>
<p>And no, your life isn’t ruined if you don’t get into a top school, but it sure as hell seems that way.</p>
<p>Ironically, I’m IN Texas - been here since my first child was born. And I have 2 teenagers, so yeah, I get it. My 17 yr old is working her way through taking a very rigorous course load (3 AP’s this year) and is doing quite well by working extremely hard - and yes, there have been many times where classmates have suggested “dividing up” workload, etc and she has passed on that. It’s a tremendous, tremendous amount of work and this year she has learned to live with her first 2 B’s (unweighted) in 2 AP classes. She is still in the top 5% of her class and has set her sites beyond Texas state schools anyway. But, even if those 2 B’s had dropped her out of the top 10%, I would much prefer that over her cheating to keep straight A’s. How can you even compare the two alternatives? She also plays a school and club sport at the highest possible level which involves long hours of practice and missing school for travel. And she has a part time job. I don’t think there are many kids working harder than she is. So don’t give me that crap that it CAN’T be done, it’s just really, really hard. And, yes, we are very aware of the kids that are cheating their way through and maybe that’s why it ****es me off that everyone wants to explain it away and justify it. But in no way do I think any of this is “hurting” her. There is alot more to what makes you successful in life than your HS class rank or from which college you graduated. I don’t worry about her future at all, but I sure worry about the kids who are being raised to believe it’s ok because “everybody’s doing it”, etc… </p>
<p>And not getting into UT or Harvard is not going to ruin your life, for Pete’s sake!! And I would definitely not make the blanket statement that “fewer UNT grads succeed”. What…? There is so much more to career and life success then where you graduated. As someone who has worked in the real world for many, many years, and done alot of hiring - trust me, after perhaps your very first job, prospective employers are most concerned with what you accomplished at your last job and what you bring to the position you are being hired for, NOT where you went to college! (And I’m sure almost any hiring manager would take an honest Mean Green Eagle over a cheating Longhorn…) And if you’re only focus is financial career success, I’d be focusing more on WHAT you’ll major in than where you’ll go - I bet an engineer from UNT is going to make a whole lot more money than a philosophy major from Harvard, for instance.</p>
<p>It’s laughable Texaspg, to keep justifying that the boy in question copied someone else’s homework because he felt it was busy work. If he was so opposed to the “busy work”, why not just not do it? But no, he found someone who actually DID the work and copied THEIR work. See the difference? That’s not a “spur of the moment” mistake. That’s absolutely pre-meditated and incredibly selfish.</p>
<p>Being dropped from that class at the end of the year and then readmitted to the IB program as a junior just seems extremely reasonable and more than fair. And certainly not life-altering…</p>
<p>I am not justifying what the kid did but it is a moot point if we keep coming back to this - he cheated and you are condoning it for any type of evaluation of action vs punishment.</p>
<p>I don’t have a problem with the fact that this kid made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. I have, my kids have, I’m sure the administrators at the boy’s school have. The thing that bothers me is the fathers’s attempts to shield his son from the consequences of his mistake. Here he had an opportunity to help his son stand up, admit that what he did was wrong, take his punishment and go on with life at a time when the repercussions were minor. He would have lost a GPA boost in one class and colleges would never have known about the cheating.</p>
<p>Instead the father chose to teach his son that it’s okay to cheat as long as one has some weight to throw around or can find a technicality on which to get off. I find that sad and I worry about this boy’s future.</p>
<p>And xleading lifex, if that’s really how your parents raised you, I genuinely feel bad for you. I’m not being sarcastic. I DO think there’s a ridiculous amount of pressure on HS kids these days. Kind of a funny, yet telling story - we recently went to an orientation for kids coming into high school (I have an 8th grader as well) One of the speakers went on and on and on about the importance of being in the top 10 % (as I said, I’m in TX, too), basically telling the entire audience they had to be in the top 10%. My husband leaned over to me and said “I wasn’t a math major, but I’m pretty sure all of these kids can’t be in the top 10%”. We still crack up about that, but it’s not really funny and definitely goes to your point.</p>
<p>And while I LOVE this forum, I have been shocked by the group of parents who DO believe that it’s HYPS or McDonald’s. </p>
<p>I can only promise you or whoever else is feeling this that in the long run, cheating to please your parents or the school or whatever your reason, will backfire miserably. Ultimately you have to take responsibility for your actions and their consequences. The earlier this is learned the better. The consequences will only get more severe later, and you may not have parents around to “make it better”.</p>
<p>“I am not justifying what the kid did but it is a moot point if we keep coming back to this - he cheated and you are condoning it for any type of evaluation of action vs punishment.”
But you are - you said it was probably because he didn’t feel the work had value. And who is condoning it?</p>
<p>“Prosecutors, who say the boy was fighting about grades with his father, will seek to have him tried as an adult when he appears in Juvenile Court.”</p>
<p>Who is condoning - no point discussing it further. he cheated, cheated, cheated, cheated. So what. As the above shows, lot worse happens.</p>
<p>I am still waiting to see a single administrator suspended or fired in a local high school over videotaped beating of one girl by another girl that over a 100 kids watched while it happened inside the high school, the mother of the attacked kid called and warned the asst principal and he said it slipped his mind that he was supposed to pull them out of class.</p>
<p>xleading…Careful…your sweeping generalizations are showing again. Are there parents that push their kids too hard? Absolutely. But “wanting your kids to live up to their potential” is something every parent should have as a goal, but you somehow consider that “screwing their kids up”? The only thing that quality parents ask of their children is that they put their best effort into whatever they do. Whatever “letter grade” that equates to (in terms of academics at least) is inconsequential. In your “vast” experience you probably have seen some instances of excessive parental pressure, but if you think everyone in “my generation” is driving their kids to cheat you’ve got a heck of a lot of growing up and learning to do before you have kids of your own.</p>
<p>Read my post again. I didn’t condemn your whole generation, I said there are many young adults with a sense of entitlement…and there indeed are. But there are also many young adults (and I’m proud to say my children are among them) who understand important concepts like actions have consequences, ethics still mean something, and character still matters. As you said earlier…“Life sucks and sometimes it isn’t fair”. True statement, but it’s a copout to use that as rationalization or an excuse. Do we always get what we deserve? Nope. But if you’ve HONESTLY earned what you have then it’s something to be proud of…no matter what it amounts to materialistically. If all success means to you is a pile of money, I truly feel sorry for you. Don’t worry though, if you should ever choose to cheat to make sure you get into one of those selective schools…just blame us nasty old parents for pressuring you into it. You won’t judge yourself regardless.</p>