<p>@50ishwoman
Yes, but you get paid to do busywork. I much prefer scanning someone’s groceries for eight hours and getting yelled at by customers and bosses alike but
making $60-ish for it than I do sitting in school, being told how dumb I am, and teachers completely disrespect their students (most of which are smarter than the teacher) only to be assigned more busy work to do for the benefit of no one. </p>
<p>When you have to do busywork for school, you benefit no one, when you do it for work, you at the very least benefit yourself because you make money. And I know youre all going to say that school allows you to get a higher paying job, which is statistically true. My issue isn’t school, it’s the busywork, the stuff that doesn’t teach us anything because I agree that an education is important. Busywork, however, is not.</p>
<p>I also think many of you are conflating “undesirable work” with “busywork.” They’re not the same. Virtually all homework is undesirable. I doubt you can find someone who “likes” most homework (with some exceptions). However, there is concrete, true intellectual value in most English essays I have written, for example, most labs I have done, and most physics problem sets. Despite this, if given the option to do an essay or not, I would obviously rather not do it.</p>
<p>While it is true that many adults in jobs do “undesirable” work, it’s really not comparable to the kind of busywork that teachers, especially lower-level teachers, assign. I mean, you are literally copying a sentence from a book onto a worksheet. Or, for a journal entry, you are basically writing down what the teacher said 5 minutes ago. Granted, many adults have jobs with this kind of work (i.e. data entry jobs)–it just tends not to be adults who were high-achieving students in high school.</p>
<p>^ I agree that there is a difference. I would personally equate scanning groceries to busywork, as there’s no intellectual value. However, in English we get to choose a topic for an essay (any topic at all) and make three different genres for it and write a research paper. Personally, I wish we had more time than what was allotted to us because I find my topic (the theories of time travel, how they relate to Lost, and how that changes one’s interpretation of the ending) SO INTERESTING. I feel like the two weeks she gave us on it isn’t enough time to truly delve into the subject and am honestly thinking about completing it over the summer just because it feels like my product is going to be incomplete. That’s not busywork. </p>
<p>And yes, I realize not everything can be as fun as physics (and friction (get it anyone?)) but assignments can be much more than just a worksheet you stole off of online. And I do think kids cheat less when they’re genuinely interested in something or at least see the intellectual value in an assignment. That being said, some kids will still cheat. I just think the proportion will be less.</p>
<p>There was an interesting news in NPR - about cheating and fraud. And how the nicest of the (younger) kid who promised his dying father that he will never cheat and fraud (because his elder brother did it) – broke the promise and end up defrauding for 7M$.</p>
<p>At our high school we use Formative and Summative Assessment. Homework isn’t “counted” for the grade. Homework is used as practice only. If you get the concept, you don’t have to do it. BUT, if you can’t pass the Summative Assessment (6-7 forms of the same test), you must practice the Formative Assessment (homework) until you can pass the Summative Assessment. Our students’ scores (math as example) have gone up! Students practice what they don’t know and don’t need to practice what they already know. Students are allowed to re-take Summative Assessments.</p>
<p>We also have students practice via Khan and Brightstorm first before class meetings and then the teacher answers important questions in class.</p>
<p>Only because in the case you describe, there’s an objective assessment tool (or tools). In the complaints from most students (including many I work with), the assessment of what is “already known” is inaccurately made by the student himself. He or she “just knows it” and “shouldn’t have to do busywork.” Except that in 100% of the students who so self-report to me, they in fact do not “know” it, because they cannnot consistently perform or apply the “knowledge” in homework, and consequently fail the tests. (Math being the prime example of the need to practice what is not mastered, as tests are based on that practice.)</p>
<p>One may “know” a concept but not know it concretely; such “knowledge” is not a useful tool. </p>
<p>Lawyers and doctors “know” lots of stuff, but if they don’t file the “busy” paperwork, their cases aren’t going to be litigated and there will be no labs on which to base a diagnosis. Even careers with glamorous titles involve lots of busywork.</p>
<p>Yes! Students at the beginning think they “get it” and soon learn via summative assessments that their knowledge is not as deep. They end up spending more time on review than before, but we’ve found that it engages real learning rather than copied worksheets and the like.</p>
<p>But there is the occasional student that does understand the concept. Why do a worksheet if they have proven 90%+ understanding?</p>
<p>xleadinglifex, you do have another choice regarding busywork…don’t do it. </p>
<p>My son decided early in high school that he wouldn’t do certain things just for the sake of doing them. He is good at math, so he has been able to calculate the cost of not turning in worksheets or exerting only a nominal amount of effort on assignments that he says are “not worth his time” and still get the grades he wants. At first this bothered me but I came to see it as his way of focusing on the things he cared about and PRIORITIZING, which is a valuable life skill.</p>
<p>We can’t do everything well, or care about everything equally. And we don’t ALL have to have Ivy League colleges as our goal. I am confident that my son is better prepared for college and grad school than his friends who haven’t strategically and thoughtfully attacked their workloads, and instead are trying to be all things to all people. It just isn’t possible, and the costs are too high.</p>
<p>@Sally
I dont do half of the homework assigned to me (or more than half even). It does stink in it that not doing assignments or cheating on them hurts you in the admissions process, but I already knew I wouldn’t be able to get into an ivy and have them pay my way so I’d be going to a state school so that it’s not as expensive so it didn’t bother me THAT much. It just stinks that the more intelligent students who know they don’t need the extra practice get punished for it. </p>
<p>I forget the name, but whoever was saying kids don’t know when they know something so they can’t handle optional assignments, that’s bull. Yeah a kid might suffer at the beginning of the year, but if a kid realizes he’s going to fail if he doesn’t start reviewing on his own, he’s going to study on his own or realize it’s his own fault. The issue is that kids get too accustomed by all the gimmie homework and project grades that they think they can just copy those and do well enough on the tests they won’t fail too bad. You get rid of those and make failing a very real possibility and I guarantee you most kids are going to try harder and study harder. </p>
<p>And to the person who equated doctor’s paperwork as busywork, it’s not. They get paid for it. I don’t get paid for going to school. And the doctor’s have the threat of being fired whereas most schools really don’t want their kids to fail and do absolutely everything in their power to prevent it. Also, if the doctor doesn’t do the paperwork there are real consequences to his tests, patient’s health, etc. If I don’t do my homework, a metaphorical representation of how much the school thinks I’ve “learned” suffered. Essentially a relatively meaningless number gets smaller. It shouldn’t be about how much work I do in school, it should be about how much I learn. At work it should be how much work I get done. There are clear differences between school and a job and their purposes.</p>
<p>Students should practice writing as much as possible. I fail to see how journal assignments could ever be “useless.” When you practice writing, you become better at it. And judging from the grammar and spelling mistakes displayed by some of the students protesting homework, they actually don’t know it all.</p>
<p>I don’t know how in the world you could call copying someone else’s work a petty infraction. Expecting a kid’s journal to be his or her original work is not a “pathetic” or “illogical” requirement.</p>
<p>I know many of the kids on this discussion who feel “everyone cheats” and that it’s “no big deal” and that you don’t have to do “busy work” all mean well. But you are all in for a very rude awakening, maybe in college, but for sure in the real world.</p>
<p>I respect Sally’s son’s strategy because he made a conscious decision, understood the consequences and lived with the results. Had Sally & her son SIGNED a contract that said “I will do ALL my homework or get kicked out of this class”, they would have had to live with that consequence as well.</p>
<p>xlivinglifex, the doctor example is more valid than you think - you are not paid monetarily, but you ARE compensated - you are compensated with things like grades and advantages in admissions. You lamented that not doing your work would hurt you in the admissions process, but that was your choice to give up that advantage. If it was important enough to you, you would have done the work. Sally’s son knew the consequences and was ok with it.</p>
<p>My D would completely agree that she doesn’t have enough hours in the day to complete all the AP work on her plate and still pratice and travel for her sport and work part time. Because she will be studying engineering, she has made a conscious decision to prioritize AP Chem and Calc, and push APUSH to the bottom of the list. That B in APUSH would likely keep her out of an Ivy, but that’s ok, she made the decision knowing full well the consequences. She knows where she will go to college, and she is on track for admissions there.</p>
<p>We all have free will in what we do everyday - the work we choose to do and not do, whether we are honest or cheat. Not just in school but in all aspects of our life. What’s disturbing is the free ride you all seem to think you deserve - you want the freedom without the consequences. It doesn’t work that way.</p>
<p>Son had a friend in middle school who got very high grades and was, in all respects, a super achiever. I remember one evening picking up our landline phone to make a call and inadvertently overhearing this boy pressuring my son to give him the answers to a take home math exam. It was truly shocking. We asked our son about it and he said he told his friend he wasn’t done with it yet. He also told us this went on a lot with this “friend.” </p>
<p>That kid grew up to go to an Ivy and is on his way in the financial sector. All who I know who know him think he is absolutely terrific. Whatever. I think some very smart people get away with cheating in life. It’s the less clever ones who get caught. I think we all know that.</p>
<p>A good friend of mine goes to a small parochial school where the salutatorian has copied homework for years and is applying to the same schools as my friend. Since the other girl has a higher GPA, despite not have done quite as well on standardized tests or having some of the extra cool ECs my friend does, my friend is bummed that her first choice school, which places a huge emphasis on GPA, will probably take the other girl over her (if anyone). But she also says that’s just the way it is.</p>
<p>This type of message always confuses me and the lawyers who actually take a case like this.</p>
<p>The problem is that the kid cheated, and the dad says he is concerned about his sons future. Then reprimand your son, not the school, for cheating. </p>
<p>The lesson the dad is now teaching the son, it is ok to cheat son, and if someone punishes you for cheating, remember there is always some “needy” lawyer who will take the opportunity to sue. Just blame everyone else for your failure. </p>
<p>Way to teach your son “honor” and “integrity.” And do we wonder why some of the kids are on Wall Street instead of in the classrooms or with jobs?</p>
<p>No lawyer tool this case, the dad IS the lawyer. </p>
<p>The dad found a loophole - some conflicting rule in the school rules, so it is possible they could win. But I agree that he is teaching the wrong lesson.</p>
<p>I’d have to know more about the particulars of the case before I’d jump to the conclusion that there is or isn’t something actionable afoot; maybe the dad is exposing a real issue with the way discipline is meted out at this school. My own kid’s school runs okay, but I’ve observed enough hypocrisies and inconsistencies with regard to policy enforcement to make it easy for me to imagine that there could be a case in this instance. It may be that the dad found more than a “loophole.” Isn’t it possible the school truly is being inconsistent in administering its own policies? I’m not condoning cheating, mind you (or casual lawsuits, for that matter).</p>
<p>“Isn’t it possible the school truly is being inconsistent in administering its own policies?”</p>
<p>Yes. It just isn’t possible that a one-semester, one-course track demotion would hurt the kid’s college chances more than being permanently and publicly associated with cheating.</p>