<p>I certainly have seen that, and deplore it when it happens. I recently “got into it” with a colleague because of this. She was defending special treatment regarding a cheating violation by a student of ethnic minority on the grounds that “it would change his life” not to be admitted to a top-ranked college. (In her opinion, an exception should be made and the rules tossed based on arbitrary feeling.) Yet the student was as aware of policies and consequences as every other student was. And it could easily happen to a politically favored student on the other end of the economic spectrum as well (and probably has).</p>
<p>I.m.o. this is the kind of attitude and action that breeds even more cynicism among students than the “knowledge” (or more accurately, assumption) that “every student cheats.” It’s a different form of arrogance, but just as toxic. </p>
<p>If administration has no backbone to enforce consequences, then don’t have rules, and anything goes. If you have regulations, publish them and enforce them equitably, or don’t be surprised when students do not respect them. (And when parents sue.)</p>
<p>epiphany, I’m confused by your point - the school DOES have documented consequences and they ARE following them. There were 3 other boys in this case and they all got the exact same consequence. Their dads just aren’t suing the school. The facts:
“The sophomore had signed an “Academic Honesty Pledge” at the beginning of the 2011-2012 school year that declares cheating is grounds for immediate removal from the advanced-level program; his mother also had signed it. According to the lawsuit, however
another school document states that a student will be removed from the program only after a second plagiarism offense.”</p>
<p>So that’s the loophole - the kid and his mom SIGNED the pledge saying cheating would remove him from the program. Then when he gets caught cheating (and everyone involved ADMITS he was cheating) Dad finds out about the second document and sues. So the fact that his kid and wife SIGNED the document and knew EXACTLY what the consequences were is irrelevant to Dad. </p>
<p>And the school actually worked with the family to offer that he be admitted back into the program the following year (he’s only a sophomore) and that the offense be removed from his record, but Dad said no. </p>
<p>And I’m not even saying the kid is a bad kid, maybe he’s a great kid, but he screwed up and violated a document he signed, and he knew full well what the consequences of his actions would be. It’s a total no-brainer. And could’ve been a great life lesson for the kid. SMH…</p>
<p>If it’s true that this other document exists, that would seem to be more than a “loophole,” IMO, even though that’s what everyone is calling it. The school administration has a responsibility to keep the policies in order, and if those policies aren’t in order, why should the school be let off the hook? If this second document exists and is shared with families, then the school’s published policy is ipso facto not consistent. The way I see it, the school should be expected to abide by the terms of this second document just as much as the family should be expected to abide by the terms of the “academic honesty pledge.” Kind of a quandary, IMO, and not an open and shut matter based on my limited view of things (i.e., reading a couple of articles).</p>
<p>Also, the fact that these other three kids involved in this cheating case were treated the same way doesn’t mean that there aren’t other cases where the policy was applied differently … The article Bay linked to indicates there is an allegation of “vague and contradictory” policies regarding punishment; why should the school not be called to account for that if there’s evidence? </p>
<p>I’d also wish to see the content of this kid’s Facebook posting before judging whether he is a spoiled brat or has a real point to make. </p>
<p>Again, I’m not in favor of cheating … But I’m also not in favor of judging a case without having all the evidence in front of me. It’s possible (as one poster above suggested) that the father has lost his mind; it’s also possible he’s a rational guy and a good lawyer who knows he has a case.</p>
<p>“My point” is one of general principles. I thought that was clear form my post. I’m talking about uniformity. I was responding to practices about honor code violations in general, as articulated by another poster who lamented their (sometimes) lack of uniformity.</p>
<p>I didn’t think there was anything particularly obscure about my post. I wasn’t referring to this case, but to general practices and how they should be implemented.</p>
<p>I don’t know if at this school, practices have always been uniform with regard to violations. That’s all. If they haven’t been applied uniformly to similar violations, I could see a parent being annoyed – even a parent who strongly disapproved of violations in his own student. (Such as I would disapprove also!)</p>
<p>Duplicity on the part of administrators is also dishonorable. It’s just an excuse for adult rationalizations while those same adults condemn student rationalizations for cheating.</p>
<p>Yup, if it were my kid I’d say, “Dudes, you should keep your handbooks and such up to date … Your contradictory information confused me. I know what I signed but I also know what I read here [points to Web page or piece of paper]. I see your logo on this statement as well as the piece of paper I signed. Which one of these were you serious about?” It’s not fair to say the kid needs to be held accountable because of a document he and his mother signed and not to hold the school accountable for promulgating contradictory policy statements. The school should reprimand its Webmaster or dean of students or whoever’s responsible for the fact that the out-of-date policy statement is still out there. Teachable moments? This is one for the school, too.</p>
<p>IMO if the honor agreement explicitly states effects of cheating that has priority over other general documents. We’ll have to let the legal beagles decide.</p>
You could start a blog. Then there would be no need to read a thread before issuing a pronouncement. People are expecting that the comments refer to the matter under discussion.</p>
<p>Indeed, Erin’s Dad, that makes sense. At the same time, the existence of a contradictory statement certainly is awkward for the school. We also don’t know whether this one contradictory document mentioned in the press coverage is the only evidence of inconsistency in the school’s policies and in policy enforcement. </p>
<p>My larger point is that without knowing all the evidence, I’d hesitate to cast aspersions on the dad for bringing a suit. Let’s just say I have heard of incompetent and hypocritical school administrations, and I have heard of people who file lawsuits without what I would consider justification. I don’t know enough to know what’s going on here. Possibly a bit of both?</p>
<p>The comments were precisely under discussion. Some of us expect readers and contirbutors to, um, read. </p>
<p>A much better idea would be for you, before making a pronouncement, to start taking a course in reading two proximate posts in explicit conversation with each other, and see how they are directly related, when direct relationships were made:</p>
<p>absweetmarie, Post 119:
</p>
<p>epiphany, Post 121, box-quoting post 119:
</p>
<p>This thread concerns both the specific and the general with regard to cheating policies and student behaviors, including the recent post 129. Deal with it. </p>
<p>Start your own blog and quit trying to silence CC users whom you personally dislike. You do this repeatedly.</p>
<p>Everyone cheats in some way it seems in my school experience. It’s the only way to get that A. Old tests that the rest of the class doesn’t know about, unauthorized help via study groups … the list can go on and on. Pretty much, you are faced with the dilemma of either falling behind or joining in.</p>
<p>^Study groups that involve completing homework. Well, this is exactly where the line gets blurry. I have certain teachers who prohibit working together on homework (Spanish) and others who encourage it (math and science). But then there are teachers who don’t bother to encourage/forbid them. I’m not sure what would happen if kids showed up with identical homework in those classes. </p>
<p>But, of course, the traditional study group that just involves, well, studying is not banned.</p>
<p>Well it depends on the work. If it’s essays, and journals like that, of course it’s ridiculous to cheat. But if it’s busy work (which some of my classes offer like stupid crosswords, or a few tedious math problems, or anything in my Spanish class) than I wouldn’t waste my time and we’d just share answers.</p>
<p>Yes, cheating is bad in a way, but it all depends in the scenarios. </p>
<p>I referred the punishment “illogical” and “pathetic”, not the discouragement of cheating. But a student gets removed from an honor class just because of cheating? The punishment just goes overboard, how can someone actually learn from that? Out of all punishments, why did they enforce something so severe for something like cheating (which every student does lol) It’s a good thing the father sued the school.</p>
<p>No, not “everyone does it.” Most people I know of believe that academic cheating or taking credit for someone else’s work is immoral and the benefit is usually short-lived because invariably you will be caught.</p>
<p>I find the rationalizations offered here exceedingly offensive and just plain dumb. As was said quite well earlier in this thread, if the student had an objection to the assignment the student should have voiced those objections. It’s not hard. I’m mean, can’t all of us remember an incident at school with ourselves or involving our children wherein someone in class spoke up and said ‘this assignment is dumb, why do we have to do it?’ That’s what parents need to tell our children; speak up when you have a problem with a teacher. Then manage and live with the results of your actions and decisions.</p>
<p>If that is the case, then one might reasonably argue that the punishment for violation of the pledge is immediate expulsion from the class, after two strikes.</p>
<p>I have had enough experience with public schools to know that their policies can sometimes be unclear, and in some cases, completely undocumented, leading to arbitrary decision making. I think public school administrators should be held to the highest standards of fairness when meting out discipline, especially in cases like these where the discipline can have long-term consequences.</p>
<p>Adding: Berghouse was also told he had no right to appeal the decision removing him from the class, which meant his only recourse was to file this lawsuit, and which probably also formed the basis of his “due process” claim.</p>
<p>IB programs are no longer the ticket to Ivies, homework is usually less than 10% of the class grade but most work gets dumped there forcing students to mimic each other’s work due to the low value attached to it and bureaucracy in public schools trumps all else. Suing the school has essentially screwed up the kid’s life and the best chance he has to get into any college is to leave that school and go somewhere else.</p>
<p>“ummm” wow, epiphany, I stated clearly I was confused by your point. Because I was. It did give the impression you were speaking of this case. Clearly you weren’t. My sincere apologies for being so stupid. My bad.</p>
<p>@whoever said “the only way to get an A is to cheat”. That is the saddest thing I have read in a long, long, long time. And it appears many on this board (and their parents) agree with you. I think perhaps you are in the wrong classes if you genuinely believe that. And if it’s all to get you into some prestigious university, you do realize it will get harder, right? And if the university catches you cheating, the consequences may be more severe.</p>