<p>And if you are Lady Gaga, nude apparently means… well… nude. <a href=“Lady Gaga strips almost nude on stage as she takes her Artpop tour to New York | Daily Mail Online”>Lady Gaga strips almost nude on stage as she takes her Artpop tour to New York | Daily Mail Online;
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The privilege part of this is that members of the majority religious group don’t hear this about their own religion, and it makes them (us) tend to discount your feelings, and to think that you should just “get over it,” etc.</p>
<p>I would also suggest that an unfortunate by-product of minority groups pointing out this kind of discrimination has been the tendency of majority, empowered groups to co-opt this kind of grievance–the absurd “War on Christmas” complaints come to mind. There are real grievances, based on real discrimination, and real privilege that blinds people to them–but these are obscured by phony grievances, and by trivial and extreme grievances.</p>
<p>And to get this back to the original topic, in my opinion Fortgang’s grievance is both phony and trivial.</p>
<p>"I would also suggest that an unfortunate by-product of minority groups pointing out this kind of discrimination has been the tendency of majority, empowered groups to co-opt this kind of grievance–the absurd “War on Christmas” complaints come to mind. There are real grievances, based on real discrimination, and real privilege that blinds people to them–but these are obscured by phony grievances, and by trivial and extreme grievances."</p>
<p>Thank you. Well said as always. </p>
<p>I think people HERE are conflating discriminatory ignorance with privilege. I would say that it shifts to a construct of privilege (and needing to check it) if that person is making negative judgments about a person or supporting policy without a willingness to understand differing circumstances. Asking about a person in the bathroom is an instance of ignorant discrimination. To turn then and protest or speak out against a request for a gender neutral bathrooms on the grounds that it is “special treatment” or unnecessary agitating would be a place where someone might need to "check their privilege’. Yes, jym is correct . . . gay female in women’s restroom . . . either get over it or support gender neutral facilities. You can’t be against both in good conscience. </p>
<p>Yes, @pizzagirl - it should be irrelevant but it isn’t. That’s a place where the discussion can break down. It seems goofy that there would be an issue so many people say, “Hey - I don’t see what the problem is. Why are these people always so up in arms?” That can come from totally well meaning people who just don’t imagine other people could be that way. That’s where all the tiresome awareness stuff comes in. People say, “Well, this is actually something that I deal with on a daily basis.” After a point that sounds whiny and fun sucking . . . I get it. However changing attitudes and policies happen on the macro scale over time and not everyone is actually well meaning. </p>
<p>Very well said, saintfan!</p>
<p>" I would say that it shifts to a construct of privilege (and needing to check it) if that person is making negative judgments about a person or supporting policy without a willingness to understand differing circumstances. Asking about a person in the bathroom is an instance of ignorant discrimination. To turn then and protest or speak out against a request for a gender neutral bathrooms on the grounds that it is “special treatment” or unnecessary agitating would be a place where someone might need to “check their privilege’.”</p>
<p>Well, is it that they need to “check their privilege” or is it that they might just disagree? “Check your privilege” implies - what I think is correct, what you think is wrong, and your wrong ideas need to be corrected. Well, people of good faith could have differing points of view on the need for gender neutral facilities versus same-sex facilities and that doesn’t mean that they’re “privileged,” it just means they have a different point of view.</p>
<p>"However changing attitudes and policies happen on the macro scale over time and not everyone is actually well meaning. "</p>
<p>True. But you (not you specifically) wear out the good will of the people who are well meaning when you find “outrage” and “oppression” and “offense” in things well-meaning people say.</p>
<p>Look, I’m Jewish. Let’s say I go someplace and someone says “Merry Christmas” to me. I can be “outraged” and “offended” and then the person will think - oh those obnoxious pushy Jews trying to start a war on Christmas, or I can smile brightly - “thank you so much. Actually I don’t celebrate Christmas blah blah blah but I hope you have a nice holiday season too.” Which is going to get one further? BTW, I’ve done both in the past. I know which one works better. </p>
<p>If somebody–especially a Princeton student–simply has a different point of view, they should speak up and say so to the person who said, “check your privilege.”</p>
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Its not that simple. Most of these people ended up transitioning in college after they were admitted as women because transitioning is scary and its a difficult thing to do. Its not like they snuck into a women’s college as men.</p>
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Privilege and discriminatory ignorance go hand in hand. Thats the whole point.</p>
<p>Talking about “privilege” and talking about whether saying “check your privilege” is ever appropriate, are two different topics and make this thread more complicated than it needs to be. I really don’t think anyone on this thread (altho I admit I might have missed it), denies that certain groups receive different treatment in our society and thus may be considered “privileged” as compared to other groups. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.</p>
<p>The issue is whether it is ever appropriate to say to someone you <em>think</em> is privileged, based upon his race, gender or perceived SES, that he should “check his privilege.” I say no, because it is dismissive of his opinon, rude, insulting and can be bigoted, if you don’t know anything about this person’s personal circumstances.</p>
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I know that Tal Fortgang is a white male. If he said (for example) “nobody is going to follow you around in a store unless you act suspicious,” it would be all I need to know in order to explain to him that there’s something he apparently doesn’t know because of his privileged status. If you’re quibbling over the precise wording of what I say to him, OK.</p>
<p>^Right, and with that knowledge, would you say “check your privilege” to Fortgang if he said, “More people currently receiving welfare should be working?” And then, would you also say it to an apparently black woman who said “More people currently receiving welfare benefits should be working?”</p>
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<p>Adding after your edit: Yes, I am talking about using the precise phrase, “check your privilege.”</p>
<p>@jym626 “And if you are Lady Gaga, nude apparently means… well… nude.” LOL</p>
<p>Why aren’t people willing to admit that they are privileged? Some people just are. When other people bring things up that they see as privilege, the immediate reaction seems to be to denigrate or scoff at the minutiae of the observation. I was privileged when I was younger. I sailed blithely through life with not a care in the world, never worried about how I might be perceived, never worried about money or paying for anything. That my parents would pay for my undergraduate and graduate school was a given. I could work or not based on whether or not I felt like it. I didn’t think about the struggles that other people went through and was oblivious to racism and classism. When you grow up oblivious to the day-to-day, month-to-month and year-to-year struggles that other people go through, that is privilege. The younger you are and the more privileged you are, the less likely you are to be aware of the great privilege that you have. The fact that my grandfather came over from Germany with a 5th grade education is COMPLETELY irrelevant. I personally lead a privileged life when I was young. Privileged youth tend to live in homogeneous environments where most of the young people are as privileged as you. That doesn’t mean that you don’t work hard and don’t merit whatever assets/bonuses/lifestyle that you have. However, when you get out into the real world, and let’s face it college is not the real world, you should be able to recognize and acknowledge that you are privileged. I cringe when I think about how clueless I was to the realities of life when I was younger.</p>
<p>My kids live on the other side of the coin. They are definitely not children of privilege. My parent’s money is not my money and I live on the low end of the SES. That’s not in the budget is a common refrain in our household. My daughter attends a mixed middle school where kids come from all walks of life. Opportunities have had to be turned down because of lack of funds. Are my children loved, supported, and nurtured? Of course. Have they had other incredible opportunities of which they have been able to take advantage? Yes. However, I would by no means call them children of privilege. Their eyes are wide-open to the realities of life that I didn’t encounter until I was in my mid twenties. </p>
<p>Neither is right or wrong. It just is and we should all be aware of it. It makes us all better people when we can recognize the many blessings that we have and other people may not! 
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<p>I think there is a weird assumption here that privileged people are idiots. Most white people do know that racial profiling is a real thing. Of course, that doesn’t mean every time a minority is followed or stopped is a case of racial profiling. White people are trailed around stores and stopped by police, too. And, white people receive welfare. Some of them should be working. People are individuals. Not all of any one group is privileged are not privileged and privilege is not something people should have to feel guilty about. I think wealthy people are aware of their privilege. But, if some aren’t…so what? Awareness or the lack of it changes nothing substantial anyway. </p>
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<p>One major reason why Women’s Colleges did not kick transgender students out after matriculation as far as I know other than possible negative PR fallout from doing so is gender identity is one of the areas the EEOC covers as seen here:</p>
<p><a href=“Facts about Discrimination in Federal Government Employment Based on Marital Status, Political Affiliation, Status as a Parent, Sexual Orientation, and Gender Identity | U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission”>http://www.eeoc.gov/federal/otherprotections.cfm</a></p>
<p>Yes, kicking them out for being transgender would be considered discriminatory and strong grounds for an EEOC-based lawsuit against any college which does so for that reason…including Women’s colleges. </p>
<p>“Why aren’t people willing to admit that they are privileged?”</p>
<p>No one here isn’t saying that privilege doesn’t exist or that people who think it does are just making it up or that they themselves haven’t been the beneficiary of it. We are talking about using the term “check your privilege” to call attention to that, as opposed to “I wish I knew what it was like to walk into a store without being followed, but unfortunately I don’t, since shopkeepers follow me on account of my race.” </p>
<p>"If somebody–especially a Princeton student–simply has a different point of view, they should speak up and say so to the person who said, “check your privilege.” "</p>
<p>You know, in the grand scheme of things, ANY student who is fortunate enough to be attending Princeton (or Wellesley, or insert other elite school) is pretty darn privileged in the first place. That’s what’s particularly galling about “check your privilege” coming from a Wellesley student who is receiving a world-class education for nearly free, and to some extent on the backs of those that she is insulting for being privileged. Why doesn’t she check HER privilege versus the many young women who DON’T have the opportunity to attend schools of that caliber for a song? Having the luxury to storm the president’s office with demands for new majors and so forth is, in and of itself, “privileged” versus having to spend all one’s free time working to be able to afford the local community college. </p>
<p>I said:
" I would say that it shifts to a construct of privilege (and needing to check it) if that person is making negative judgments about a person or supporting policy without a willingness to understand differing circumstances. Asking about a person in the bathroom is an instance of ignorant discrimination. To turn then and protest or speak out against a request for a gender neutral bathrooms on the grounds that it is “special treatment” or unnecessary agitating would be a place where someone might need to “check their privilege’.”</p>
<p>and pizzagirl responded:
Well, is it that they need to “check their privilege” or is it that they might just disagree? “Check your privilege” implies - what I think is correct, what you think is wrong, and your wrong ideas need to be corrected. Well, people of good faith could have differing points of view on the need for gender neutral facilities versus same-sex facilities and that doesn’t mean that they’re “privileged,” it just means they have a different point of view.</p>
<p>and I am now responding:<br>
How is it possible to have “different point of view” about the right of every dorm student having a welcome place to use the facilities whether those designated for their gender or some other configuration? That is not open to a vote or a matter of opinion. Yes, some things are matters of opinion, but using the bathroom is not one of them - it is a basic human function. People of good faith - if they have any level of awareness - cannot possibly have differing views on what needs to happen when nature calls.</p>