Cher's daughter, Chastity Bono, is changing gender

Parent Cafe
181

<p>Cardinal Fang, I’m sure she’d advocate reparation therapy, given where she’s coming from with all her posts.</p>

<p>There’s even less evidence that that “cures” transsexuals than that it “cures” homosexuality.</p>

<p>And of course you’re right.</p>

<p>Most trans people try a series of steps, from small ones to large ones, less drastic to more drastic, to treat the dysphoria. If you’re interested, you can take a look at the current edition (the 6th, dated 2001) of the widely followed medical “Standards of Care” promulgated by WPATH (the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, formerly known as the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association) at <a href=“http://wpath.org/Documents2/socv6.pdf[/url]”>http://wpath.org/Documents2/socv6.pdf&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Even if you’re convinced from the outset that you want to have surgery, you’re still supposed to follow all the preceding steps first, for the prescribed amount of time, just to make absolutely sure that this is the right decision for you. </p>

<p>And, for most transsexual people I know, transition (medical, social, and/or surgical, to whatever extent is necessary) <em>is</em> the cure. You have no idea what it’s like, after a lifetime of feeling “wrong,” to feel right. With the dysphoria just – gone.</p>

182

<p>I want to thank both DonnaL and Queaer for their patience in answering the questions in this thread. It isn’t often that the public gets such an opportunity to hear the transgender point of view. So much erroneous information on the topic comes from either tabloid rags (pregnant man!), shows like Jerry Springer (my husband is a drag queen!), porn sites (shemales!), and carnival side shows (bearded lady!) etc., that the well spoken and intelligent people such as we have here on CC don’t get heard. This thread has been enlightening for all who read it from the beginning, no matter what your opinion is on the subject, after reading all points of view a better understanding is gained.</p>

183

<p>You have no idea what it’s like, after a lifetime of feeling “wrong,” to feel right.</p>

<p>It must be a really beautiful thing. Thank you for sharing so much with us, Donna.</p>

184

<p>I was thinking that maybe I should try to explain what that feels like (even though it’s pretty much impossible to put into words), and maybe the best way I can do that is to quote from a couple of my posts on the trans-related boards where I’m a moderator – one that I wrote last year about my feelings on the third anniversary of the day I completed my social transition by starting to live and work as “myself” fulltime, and the other on the fourth anniversary a couple of months ago.</p>

<p>In the first one, from last year, I talked about, among other things, the fact that it’s always been very difficult for me to grasp the concept of exactly what it means to “feel like a woman,” a phrase other MTF transsexuals sometimes use.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>One corollary I forgot to mention in this post: I never, ever, once, in my entire life, felt like a man, or felt like that was the right word for me. Even in my lowest moments, I knew that whatever I was, a man wasn’t it!</p>

185

<p>And this is what I wrote this year:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>And that’s the best I can do to explain what it feels like.</p>

186

<p>That’s an inspiring post, Donna. I’m really glad your son is so cool. And that you feel “right” even if it’s impossible to define “feeling like a woman”. I’m not sure I could define what it feels like to be a woman or a mom or an adult or anything I supposedly am at this point, so that seemed really meaningful to me – the point about how living as a woman is more important than the mysterious and surely not uniform concept of feeling like one.</p>

187

<p>Can someone tell me where the “ignore” button is? I must be the most clueless poster on CC.</p>

188

<p>Thanks, PhysicsMom! (And thanks for the sweet pm you sent me the other day – sorry I haven’t answered it yet; I’m afraid I get delinquent about doing that sometimes.)</p>

189

<p>mimk6, I had to ask someone too – go to “My Control Panel,” and click the “edit ignore list” button on the left. Then you just add the person you want to ignore, and, presto, their posts (past and future) are gone for you!</p>

190

<p>Thank you, Donna. It’s hard for me to grasp what you’ve been through, but when I read these words of yours…</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>…I thought to myself, “That sounds like me trying to recall the pain of labor after my children were born.” And then I had to laugh, as I remembered that those final, wrenching stages of labor are called “transition.” :)</p>

191

<p>DonnaL, your post made me understand, a bit, one thing that has often annoyed me when I read the accounts of some transwomen. They transition, and then they go on and on about how now they’re women, and they’re going to do all these things women do- wear lots of makeup, totter around in ridiculously high heels, have men open doors for them, speak in high breathy voices, act helpless- and I just think, hey, wait a minute. That’s not what being a woman is. I don’t do any of those things. What am I, chopped liver? You transitioned so you could be infantile?</p>

<p>But now I realize maybe it’s of the same nature as little girls of three and four who go through princess/fairy stages where they dress up in the most elaborate play ball gowns. It’s an overreaction from people just learning to be female.</p>

192

<p>

</p>

<p>Me either. I think I managed to skip the so-called “adolescent” phase. Perhaps because I’ve always been extremely self-conscious about doing anything to make myself look ridiculous! Also, unlike some trans women who have to go it alone and figure everything out by themselves, I had some women I was close to who were able to teach me the rudiments of things like applying makeup, and what sort of clothing suited my body type, and were even willing to go shopping with me! I was also extremely lucky in being as small as I am, and in the fact that for whatever reason I always seemed to blend in well, and the fact that (unlike most trans women) I didn’t have a need to change the sound of my voice at all, or the way I speak, or my manner or affect. In other words, all the things about me that made it very difficult in many ways to live as a guy (like always being the shortest guy in any school or at any job I ever had, or always being called “ma’am” on the phone – people even used to argue with me once in a while that I couldn’t possibly be Mr. L-----, and must be some woman impersonating him!) made it seem completely easy and natural to live as a woman. Others, who are very tall or have very masculine bodies or faces or voices, often feel so insecure about “passing,” especially early on, that they feel a need to pile on the female “gender cues” in an attempt to do so. It takes time for some people to realize that piling it on just makes everything more obvious. Also, don’t underestimate how hard it is, if you have a really deep, masculine voice, to train it so that it sounds like a natural female voice rather than an artificial performance.</p>

<p>PS: I have, and have always had, difficult, wide feet. So pointy-toed high-heeled shoes are out for me. And I almost never wear heels higher than 1.5 inches, either; anything more than that is too uncomfortable. Who needs to have their feet hurt all day? (So I’m always looking for comfortable shoes with a low heel in a 7.5 W – not always so easy to find.)</p>

193

<p>Thanks for pointing out the Control Panel. Trust me, there are a lot of women who hate heels and think they were somehow invented to make us miserable by, hmmnnn, guess who?</p>

194

<p>Claremarie, 30 years ago when Dr Money was running his studies (many of which have come under a lot of fire these days for falsifying info), a large part of his patients were children who were ambiguous in gender. They were not from disturbed families but with parents who were very, very concerned about them. </p>

<p>If anything, the situation of ambiguous gender in a society that is so gender specific, is what can cause a lot of the stress and problems for those in this situation.</p>

195

<p>Donna, some folks on this board swear that Zappos is the place to get difficult to find shoe sizes!</p>

196

<p>Nordstrom is THE place for hard to find shoe sizes. A quick search on 7.5 W produced 266 hits. </p>

<p>[Home</a> Page](<a href="http://shop.nordstrom.com/as?searchtype=advancedsearch&origin=sdlp&CatID=6000009|Women’s+Shoes&CatLevel=1]Home"&gt;http://shop.nordstrom.com/as?searchtype=advancedsearch&origin=sdlp&CatID=6000009|Women’s+Shoes&CatLevel=1)</p>

197

<p>“Hormones and/or surgery to change one’s body gender is certainly a radical solution to the problem-- at the very least a painful, expensive and somewhat dangerous solution-- but I haven’t heard claremarie explaining what her alternative is. A quick flick of Occam’s Razor tells us if there was an easier way to deal with being a transsexual, people wouldn’t be picking the hard way.”</p>

<p>Those purportedly suffering from “BIID” claim that the only solution to their disorder is to amputate the offending (healthy) limb. If therapy doesn’t “work” for them, is it OK to have a doctor cut off their perfectly healthy leg so that they can have the disabled body that their mind tells them they belong in?</p>

198

<p>

Why not? Certainly they’re not hurting anyone else, and it’s clear from this Newsweek article that therapy won’t solve the dysphoria, and the alternative – as with back-alley abortions – is far more dangerous: [BIID:</a> Why Sufferers Amputate Their Own Limbs | Newsweek Health | Newsweek.com](<a href=“http://www.newsweek.com/id/138932]BIID:”>http://www.newsweek.com/id/138932) </p>

<p>* “BIID sufferers have little option for treatment, and many of them take extreme and dangerous measures to amputate or paralyze themselves. One patient featured in Melody Gilbert’s 2004 documentary “Whole,” froze his leg off with dry ice. Another blew one off with a shotgun. In one case, a man traveled to Mexico and paid $10,000 for an illegal amputation, only to die of gangrene.” *</p>

<p>Regardless, it makes little sense to equate this with gender reassignment surgery, which does not, obviously, leave the patient in a disabled state.</p>

199

<p>I am joining the group who will ignore this^^^^ ■■■■■ (CM). The lies, the distortions, the cruel, nasty attacks from a supposed “christian” person are beyond the pale. Body Identity Integrity disorder is an entirely separate issue has nothing to do with what is being discussed here, and to try to use it as a way of explaining part of the process of transitioning is merely another ploy. Waste of bandwith.</p>

<p><strong><em>Edit</em></strong> (z) posted in between with a very compelling post, btw. The ■■■■■ is CW, not (z), in cse anyone was confused.</p>

200

<p>Jym, I think BIID isn’t completely unrelated as it raises similar issues and some scientists think one may shed light on the other in terms of what is going on in the brain – and I believe Donna referred to some of the brain research that has happened. It’s similar in the sense that the sense of self in the brain does not match with the physical body and there is a powerful and compelling drive to change the body to match the way the person sees him or herself. I read another article on BIID somewhere – can’t remember where – that talked about how scientists are looking at both dynamics for clues about the other. It also raises similar ethical issues. As a society, we are more comfortable now with procedures to alter one’s body physically to match one’s gender identity. It absolutely has bearing on the ethics of dismembering a person to match their identity. If one is okay, then why would the other one not be from an ethical standpoint? I think because we are still very unfamiliar with BIID and find it hard to understand, it is labeled a ploy to discredit the transgender community but I think the BIID community would feel differently. I think their case will be greatly strengthened by the mainstreaming of the transgender community and their access to treatment, and I think physicians and medical ethicists will be forced to confront their own discomfort and factor in the fact that the only treatment that helps someone with BIID is a procedure that alters the body. There are interesting issues to consider – what would happen, for example, if suddenly scientists could help someone who felt they were in the wrong body for any reason believe that they do fit in their body? I think we would see something similar to what occurred in the hearing-impaired community when cochlear implants became an option for some. There were people who were offended that anyone thought they needed changing and refused to consider this option. Many deaf people refuse to consider it a disability – so then, who defines a disability? If someone with BIID feels disabled by having all their limbs and complete by removing one, then who is the ultimate arbiter? Is the hearing community the arbiter on whether being deaf is a disability or the non-hearing community? Anyhow, I digress. My original point is that BIID is not really an unrelated issue in terms of the medical ethics or the psychological dynamic of believing you are in a body that does not feel right to you and wanting to take steps to align the body according to what feels right and comfortable. And if I was an advocate for the BIID community, I would absolutely argue this point to try to gain acceptance.</p>