Cher's daughter, Chastity Bono, is changing gender

[ADad]

<p>

In other words, this study found correlation but no sign of causation [between abuse and gender role/sexual orientation]

</p>

<p>It is easy to imagine scenarios in which gender orientation, appearing “effeminate”, “gay”, etc. leads to abuse.</p>

[katliamom]

<p>I haven’t read this entire thread but I just want to say that I think it’s very brave of Chastity to pursue this goal, which is hard enough in itself without having to deal with the glare of publicity she’ll attract. I wish Chastity & family the best - and some privacy too.</p>

[claremarie]

<p>“Literature suggests that one in 3 girls and one in 7 boys are sexually abused before (or by) the age of 18.”</p>

<p>And what “literature” would that be? And does “suggests” mean something different than “establishes” or “proves?”</p>

[claremarie]

<p>“In other words, this study found correlation but no sign of causation.”</p>

<p>DonnaL claimed that no “shred” of evidence shows that homosexuals have a higher rate of child sexual abuse. This study found that homosexual men were seven times more likely to have been sexually abused as children than heterosexual men. The issue of correlation v. causation is another issue, which I did not raise in my earlier post.</p>

[quaere]

<p>If you believe that the issue of correlation v. causation is irrelevant, then why have you posted so much material outlining correlations between “dysfunctional” families, abuse, and LGBTQ identities - unless you meant to imply that this is somehow relevant to gender and sexual orientation? Or do you believe that this correlation is important even if there is no kind of causation, and if so, can you explain why?</p>

<p>Your own words, from post 149:</p>

<p>

Can someone point me to an unbiased, peer-reviewed, reliable study that demonstrates that children with GID, or adults seeking to change their sex (many of the latter were once the former, no?) come from stable, intact families with no history of child abuse, sexual abuse, psychiatric trauma, or other pathologies?</p>

<p>Because what I’ve seen so far suggests that family structure IS a relevant factor in these cases. And, indeed, in the case of many “ordinary” homosexual and lesbians. The absence of a loving father who is a positive role model is striking.

</p>

<p>I, and probably many others here, took “relevant factor” to imply some degree of causation. Did you have another meaning in mind?</p>

[claremarie]

<p>“If you believe that the issue of correlation v. causation is irrelevant, then why have you posted so much material outlining correlations between “dysfunctional” families, abuse, and LGBTQ identities - unless you meant to imply that this is somehow relevant to gender and sexual orientation? Or do you believe that this correlation is important even if there is no kind of causation, and if so, can you explain why?”</p>

<p>I didn’t say that the issue was irrelevant. But the literature does reveal that homosexual men and women report significantly higher rates of child sexual abuse than does the general population. It is reasonable to ask whether a history of such abuse is a factor in determining the homosexual orientation.</p>

[DonnaL]

<p>Claremarie, even apart from the fact that the study you quote talks about rates of self-identification as gay among adolescents who were sexually abused as men (not the converse, i.e., the percentage of gay men who were sexually abused as children), please don’t pretend that you weren’t talking about causation. Causation is exactly what you’ve been arguing. As to which, see the already-quoted excerpts from the article.</p>

<p>Not to mention that none of this has anything to with all the other supposed causal factors you suggest. And that it has nothing to do with transsexuals. (Which, as my son could tell you, are not the same thing as gay men!)</p>

<p>See also Box Turtle Bulletin’s commentary on similar claims by Focus on the Family (a commentary dated four days ago; what a remarkable coincidence that FoF and Claremarie have been thinking about the same topic!):</p>

<p>

Focus On the Family recently issued one of their “reports” by Jeff Johnston, who is touted as the “gender issues analyst” at Focus On the Family (his degree and qualifications are never mentioned). That report, “Childhood Sexual Abuse and Male Homosexuality,” is further intended to reinforce the claim that most gay men have experienced some form of sexual abuse in their childhoods, and that this is the reason they became gay. To back up his claims, he cites the book, Unequal Opportunity: Health Disparities Affecting Gay and Bisexual Men in the United States, edited by Richard J. Wolitsk, Ron Stall and Ronald O. Valdiserri. That book contains a large number of research papers on various topics related to men’s health, including child sexual abuse. Johnston claims:</p>

<p>

In a chapter titled, “Childhood Sexual Abuse Experienced by Gay and Bisexual Men: Understanding the Disparities and Interventions to Help Eliminate Them,” from the book Unequal Opportunity, researchers analyze and report on data from 17 different studies from the past 15 years. They find the rates of childhood sexual abuse (which they abbreviate as CSA) for men who have sex with men range from 11.8% to 37.0%, and note that “the best-designed studies tend to converge on CSA prevalence of 15% to 25%.”

</p>

<p>The authors in Unequal Opportunity are reluctant to say that childhood sexual abuse is one of the factors that leads to or contributes to the development of homosexuality, but they do speculate,</p>

<p>

The fact that most childhood abusers of MSM were males suggests either an etiological link between CSA and adult sexual orientation, or the existence of childhood characteristics that are related to adult sexual orientation in men that increase vulnerability, or both.”

</p>

<p>And later, they say that these early sexual experiences “can be considered a form of sexual learning, even if that learning is involuntary and the results dysfunctional.” They continue, “Sexual orientation and gender identity can be particularly confusing for men who experienced arousal during the abuse, and MSM who experienced abuse may continue to be aroused by circumstances that mirror the abusive situation.</p>

<p>Grove City College professor Warren Throckmorton contacted Ron Stall and Ron Valdiserri and asked them to comment on the Focus On the Family report. They responded with a statement condemning the report as “inaccurate and, in our opinion, a distortion of the scientific literature.” They go on:</p>

<p>

Most basically, the Focus on the Family characterization of the literature on childhood sexual abuse among gay men represents a misunderstanding of scientific approaches to distinguishing between correlation and causation. The book chapter in question reports that gay men are more likely to report childhood sexual abuse by men than are heterosexual men. This correlation does not mean that the reported abuse caused the adult sexual orientation. If that were the case, then the fact that some heterosexual men report sexual abuse by women means that sexual abuse by women “causes” heterosexuality in men. It is also worth noting that the argument that childhood sexual abuse causes homosexuality in gay men is undermined by the fact that the vast majority of gay men are not sexually abused as children.</p>

<p>…[W]e want to state clearly that the published research does not support the claim that the development of a homosexual orientation is caused by childhood sexual abuse. Furthermore, adult homosexual orientation is no longer considered a pathology or a maladjustment. We urge those who are interested in trying to better understand some of these complex issues from a scientific perspective to read the discussions in our book, as well as the scientific literature on childhood sexual abuse, and not rely on second-hand interpretations.

</p>

[DonnaL]

<p>And where’s the “literature” on rates of childhood sexual abuse among lesbian women?</p>

[jym626]

<p>Re: post # 165: Sigh… We have to do your work for you again, CM? Start reading here:</p>

<p>• 1:3 Girls and 1:7 Boys under the age of 18 yrs are sexually abused.
-1989 Report presented for Fed. Parliament (RCMP) Jaclyn Mace @ Statistics Canada</p>

<p>[Statistics[/url</a>]
<a href=“http://www.icasa.org/docs/adult_survivors_of_child_sexual_abuse_-_DRAFT-7.doc[/url]”>http://www.icasa.org/docs/adult_survivors_of_child_sexual_abuse_-_DRAFT-7.doc](<a href=“http://www.capcsac.org/statistics]Statistics[/url”>http://www.capcsac.org/statistics)</a></p>

<p>[Child</a> sexual abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse]Child”>Child sexual abuse - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>[Child</a> Abuse: Statistics, Research, and Resources for Recovery](<a href=“http://www.jimhopper.com/abstats/]Child”>http://www.jimhopper.com/abstats/)
[Sexual</a> Abuse of Males: Prevalence, Possible Lasting Effects, and Resources](<a href=“http://www.jimhopper.com/male-ab/]Sexual”>http://www.jimhopper.com/male-ab/)
[Barnes</a> and Noble Book Previewer<a href=“read%20the%20introduction”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“Child Abuse - Physical Abuse And Neglect, Psychological Maltreatment, Sexual Abuse - Single Parent, Poverty, Theory, Family, and History - JRank Articles”>Child Abuse - Physical Abuse And Neglect, Psychological Maltreatment, Sexual Abuse - Single Parent, Poverty, Theory, Family, and History - JRank Articles]Child</a> Abuse - Physical Abuse And Neglect, Psychological Maltreatment, Sexual Abuse](<a href=“http://search2.barnesandnoble.com/BookViewer/?ean=9780061284335]Barnes”>http://search2.barnesandnoble.com/BookViewer/?ean=9780061284335)</p>

[DonnaL]

<p>Anyway, this thread was supposed to be about Chaz Bono’s transition, with a shift in emphasis to trans issues in general. Then Claremarie showed up.</p>

<p>Now we seem to be talking about the causes of homosexuality.</p>

<p>What does this have to do with Claremarie’s claims that transsexuals are severely disturbed and delusional?</p>

[jym626]

<p>Maybe in her own <em>unique</em> way she thinks she is saving souls :rolleyes:…</p>

[spideygirl]

<p>Claremarie, I went right to the article you posted, and while I will continue to defend your right to free speech here, I feel that you did not represent what was in that study in a straightforward manner. It clearly stated that your point cannot in any way be made (Quaere already posted the section).</p>

[DonnaL]

<p>Well, CM’s personal hostility is too overwhelming for me to continue responding to her. One more citation, and then I’m done. This is a current article exploring all the recent scientific literature on GID in children and adolescents, including etiology, treatment, outcomes, etc.:</p>

<p>Gender Identity Disorder in Children and Adolescents
Current Problems in Pediatric and Adolescent Health Care, Volume 39, Issue 5, Pages 117-143 May-June 2009
B. Möller, H. Schreier, A. Li, G. Romer</p>

<p>The article is available (not for free, unless you’re already a subscriber), at </p>

<p>[Elsevier:</a> Article Locator](<a href=“http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1538544209000169]Elsevier:”>Redirecting)</p>

<p>or at</p>

<p>[ScienceDirect</a> - Current Problems in Pediatric and Adolescent Health Care, Volume 39, Issue 5, Pages 111-144 (May-June 2009)](<a href=“http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=PublicationURL&_tockey=%23TOC%2312916%232009%23999609994%231057072%23FLA%23&_cdi=12916&_pubType=J&_auth=y&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=88deeab554b2f0f6ccb6a4912b60d798]ScienceDirect”>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=PublicationURL&_tockey=%23TOC%2312916%232009%23999609994%231057072%23FLA%23&_cdi=12916&_pubType=J&_auth=y&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=88deeab554b2f0f6ccb6a4912b60d798)</p>

<p>Remarkably, this article, which is 28 pages long, says nothing whatsoever about childhood gender dysphoria’s being attributable to sexual abuse or absent fathers or divorce!</p>

<p>And with that, I’m done with CM on this subject. Enough already. I rest my case.</p>

<p>If anyone other than Claremarie is still curious about trans-related issues, feel free to ask. Needless to say, I always reserve the right not to answer!</p>

[milkandsugar]

<p>There is always the ignore button.</p>

[claremarie]

<p>From the Wikipedia entry:</p>

<p>“Approximately 15% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children.[11][12][13][14][15]”</p>

<p>These numbers are all over the map, and the literature suggests that it is difficult to obtain reliable statistics in this area. The highest numbers tend to come from studies with loose definitions of “sexual abuse” and from victim advocacy groups.</p>

[mafool]

<p>I have exactly 2 people on my ignore list at present. These are people who, I think, say ridiculous, predictably defamatory and hateful things in order to say defamatory and hateful things. Reading their posts did nothing but anger me. They did not educate or enlighten and they could not seem to engage in any kind of rational dialogue. So it was leave CC or push “ignore.”</p>

[DonnaL]

<p>Good idea. And, . . . . . it’s done.</p>

[lockn]

<p>"This message is hidden because claremarie is on your ignore list. "</p>

<p>Makes you wonder if anyone is getting that message from your posts.</p>

[Cardinal_Fang]

<p>Let’s assume, just for the sake of argument, that claremarie is right and transsexualism is caused by abuse, neglect, bad parenting, eating Cocoa Puffs or whatever. So what? How does that help claremarie’s case? Whatever the cause, some people are now in the situation where their brain gender doesn’t match their body gender, and we need to think about how to respond to that.</p>

<p>Hormones and/or surgery to change one’s body gender is certainly a radical solution to the problem-- at the very least a painful, expensive and somewhat dangerous solution-- but I haven’t heard claremarie explaining what her alternative is. A quick flick of Occam’s Razor tells us if there was an easier way to deal with being a transsexual, people wouldn’t be picking the hard way. Claremarie can rant and rave about transsexuals being “delusional,” but namecalling doesn’t solve any problems. If transsexuals are “delusional,” what’s supposed to be the treatment, and why is it better than gender reassignment?</p>

[mafool]

<h1>180-Could be! It is their option to do so.</h1>