<p>Annuduhmom (cute screenname!), interesting post. I also think that Chaz is our “business” because he is a celebrity and, in our society, what celebrities do becomes everyone’s business, whether it should or not. In his case, he seems to have wanted to be a role model and has used his status to make that happen. But, the whole country watches and learns and often emulates the behavior of those who are well-known. It’s the reason that so many women fervently hoped to see Rhianna set a positive example of how to respond after a battering incident. They knew she had the eyes of every young person on her and that it was a teaching moment. I think that celebrities made it acceptable for women to have babies on their own as one well-known actress after another did it in the public eye. They have tremendous influence. Frankly, it disturbs me – and I do not at all mean this particular celebrity disclosing his transition disturbs me – the overall power of the celebrity culture and its influence disturbs me as well as our feeling that their lives are somehow our business. When we were kids (back in the Stone Age) our role models were people we actually knew with the occasional astronaut or civil rights leader thrown in. We knew very little about actor’s lives. I lived in a city where I regularly saw world-famous actors walking around doing their business and I knew nothing about their personal lives. The only ones I knew anything about were the ones whose kids I went to school with and that was no different than what I knew about the parents of other kids. In fact, Sonny and Cher were kind of the exception when they got divorced (maybe along with Lucy and Desi before them) and I think it’s because their show was built on their being married that people hooked into their lives. Otherwise, I don’t remember so much of a fascination with actors, etc. - with notable exceptions such as Marilyn Monroe, of course.</p>
<p>pipmom, the “gender binary” is the idea that gender is an either/or binary, where everyone is male or female. Some people identify “outside the binary” - that is, they consider themselves to be both, neither, or something completely different. “Genderqueer” is the most common term for people who don’t identify as male or female. Some genderqueer people decide to physically transition or live as their assigned sex as a matter of convenience, and some try to live as androgynously as possible - using gender-neutral pronouns like “they, them, their” or “ze, hir, hirs”, dressing and cutting their hair ambiguously, avoiding gendered bathrooms and language, etc.</p>
<p>People at Oberlin stereotype the Con as being less progressive than the College. While that’s not universally true, it is less accepting of trans students. There are professors who are awesome allies, and have worked closely with trans musicians - helping trans men who are singers navigate voice changes, etc. But I also have friends who have been harassed by professors because of their gender presentation (e.g., saying “What on earth is your problem? You’ll never make it in the music world if you dress like that” to a trans woman who was wearing a skirt, or deliberately using the wrong pronouns for a student who had been out for a long time). That kind of thing seems to happen more often in the Con than in the College. And it’s harder to avoid problematic professors because you’re assigned to study in a particular studio. Some people choose to stay in the closet rather than jeopardize their relationship with a professor who will be teaching them for four years, and will be their primary professional reference once they graduate.</p>
<p>There are also institutional issues for trans students within the Con. There are no all-gender bathrooms in the Conservatory complex - an issue for students who aren’t necessarily comfortable using gendered bathrooms, either because they don’t pass as their identified gender, or because they don’t identify as a man or a woman. “Gender-appropriate” dress clothing is required for performances. As well as other, smaller issues, like saying “men’s voices and women’s voices” to mean “low voices and high voices”.</p>
<p>Thanks quare-
I am surprised about the Conservatory situation. My experiences have been primarily with instrumentalists, not vocal musicians, where I can understand that some issues might definitely arise. I hadn’t really thought about the voice implications. I am surprised about the restroom situation in the Con. And I can see that since the relationship between student and prof is integral to future success, if the profs aren’t open-minded, that would be a real problem. </p>
<p>to claremarie- As you know, and as others may remember from other threads, I understand the Church’s position on transgender and surgical change. Can you point out what the Church recommends in lieu of transition- surgical or non- surgical? Because I can’t. From what I have found, this group of people is SOL as far as the Church is concerned. </p>
<p>I am of the opinion that while the Church teaches compellingly about human sexuality, it doesn’t yet know everything. Scientific and medical research have a role to play in informing the Church’s positions on these matters. </p>
<p>Clearly there are people who “think”,“feel”, “know” that they are in the wrong body. What are they supposed to do about it in order to be in accord with the Church? From everything I’ve read here and elsewhere, the only successful treatment thus far is transition, either surgical or non- surgical, depending on the person’s desires.</p>
<p>Spideygirl (post 227)
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<p>Clairmarie (post 234)
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<p>You had earlier brought up the issue of judging which weddings were or were not worthy of your esteemed attendance.</p>
<p>Clairmarie (post 223)
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<p>Regarding whether Chaz Bono’s gender transition is anyone’s “business”, the public needs positive, visible Trans role models such as Chaz to help conquer stereotypes. What is not the public’s business, however, are Chaz’ medical files. </p>
<p>Chaz has a long history of working for GLAAD. The Trans community is very lucky to have an articulate and visible person such as him.</p>
<p>“Clearly there are people who “think”,“feel”, “know” that they are in the wrong body. What are they supposed to do about it in order to be in accord with the Church? From everything I’ve read here and elsewhere, the only successful treatment thus far is transition, either surgical or non- surgical, depending on the person’s desires.”</p>
<p>There are also people who “think,” “feel,” and “know” that they are not supposed to have arms or legs, even though they do. The Church does not condone amputations in their case, so it is difficult to argue that it should condone surgical mutilations in the case of people who want to become a member of the opposite sex.<br>
But you won’t find anything in the Catechism on either of these issues. </p>
<p>There are Catholic psychiatrists and therapists members of NARTH who will treat patients with gender identity disorders, so perhaps those would be the folks to ask about treatment questions. </p>
<p>[When</a> Boys Won’t Be Boys: Childhood Gender Indentity Disorder](<a href=“http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0045.html]When”>http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0045.html)</p>
<p>From the linked article:</p>
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<p>I have no quibble with the first sentence, but the second isn’t necessarily true, as quaere and other transgendered people raised in loving, happy, healthy homes will tell you.</p>
<p>But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. (Mat 23:13) </p>
<p>To anyone reading this thread: never let anyone try to stand between you and God. Not even a church where the leaders wear cloth made of expensive gold. </p>
<p>Never be discouraged by those who wish to speak for God himself. They have what we call Spitiual Identity Disorder. They think they are God, but they are not.</p>
<p>I grew up in a loving, happy, healthy home, and I had no problem developing an acceptance of my masculinity 
I imagine if my family had been cruel, absent, abusive, or controlling - or had sent me to reparative therapy when I told them I wanted to be a Boy Scout in second grade - it would have taken much longer, and possibly done real emotional damage.</p>
<p>In terms of developing an acceptance of myself as a girl … I grew up surrounded by strong female role models (including a present and loving mother, aunts, and grandmother); was a Girl Scout for eleven years; went to an all-girls camp for eight summers; and was very aware of the fact that there were boys/men/fathers and girls/women/mothers, and I was supposed to be the later. No dice. I don’t see how being ignored or punished every time I exhibited “cross-gender” behavior would have made any difference, aside from maybe making me more determined to rebel by expressing my gender in more pronounced ways.</p>
<p>Interesting, Clairmarie, that at the bottom of the page you linked in your last post (in which parents are advised how to crush what they dislike in their “unhealthy” children) is an advertisement for the following book:</p>
<p>Helping Clients Forgive: An Empirical Guide: An Empirical Guide for Resolving Anger and Restoring Hope</p>
<p>Does God have a sense of humor or what? :)</p>
<p>Spidey–I am enjoying your posts on religion, and I think we share a similar viewpoint. I always like finding common ground with someone–and yes, I am sure God does have a sense of humor (but also a sense of tragedy over what we do to each other.)</p>
<p>Reparative therapy is nonsense. It doesn’t work. Apart from being fundamentally immoral. It is kind of funny, though, that the doctors who believe in it (like the infamous Dr. Zucker) have, for the most part, an ultimate “best hope” goal, in “repairing” children with GID who were assigned male at birth, that they’ll end up being content as feminine gay men. The theory being that it’s easier to be a feminine gay man in this world than a trans woman.</p>
<p>Which may be true, more or less. But that’s kind of irrelevant if that’s not who someone is. Although I learned to conceal it eventually, I was one of those children with GID. Despite having all sorts of love and acceptance in my home and among my peers! All the reparative therapy in the world wouldn’t have made a difference. And I very much doubt I would have ended up accepting myself as a gay man, since that never happened to be my orientation.</p>
<p>Fortunately, the closest my parents came to “reparative therapy” was buying me a button, when I was 7 years old, that said “It’s a Man’s World.”</p>
<p>Maybe so, but I wasn’t impressed!</p>
<p>I read the article that claremarie linked. Here are the issues I have with it.
- It certainly places a lot of implied blame on the parents- particularly the father.
- While it may be possible for some children to accept their biological identity with therapy in early childhood- therapy surrounding self- esteem issues, for example, I don’t think it’s possible for all children. Aversion type therapy I would think to be useless and perhaps even more damaging to the child’s psyche.
- Even assuming his argument that early intervention can best help those who suffer from GID to accept their biological nature, he offers no real options for those whose parents “missed the boat” of early detection. His claim is the later the intervention, the less likely therapy will work to help the person accept biology. </p>
<p>I also don’t really see your point, claremarie, about BIID- where folks want to amputate a limb that they feel doesn’t belong. I don’t see it as an equivalent to transexuality. In one case, there is total destruction of a body part. In the other, it is a transformation of body parts.</p>
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<p>Amen. While I understand where there are similarities between the two, I really don’t think it’s appropriate to talk about how to treat one by drawing comparisons with the other - especially when that comparison is “These people are clearly crazy, so these people must be crazy too!”, with little understanding of the cause of either condition.</p>
<p>Garland: :)</p>
<p>So quaere, since you brought it up, how does it work when a a singer decides to transition? Does a transwoman sing countertenor? Does a transman’s voice change with hormones? It could be a big shock to a singing teacher if a tenor came into class one day and said “OK, I’m a soprano now.” (I was going to say it would be a big shock if a soprano came in and announced he was a tenor, but of course, that happens to boy sopranos all the time.)</p>
<p>so claremarie- If I understand the Church’s position correctly, and I think I do, there would be no problem for a transsexual to dress and act the opposite gender of their biology. There would also be no problem for a child or an adult who was intersexed to have surgery to clarify their gender identity as either male or female. (I understand science tells us this should be done later rather than sooner as the person can identify their gender affiliation). The only real problem for the Church is the surgical and hormonal changing of the genitals, if they were normal well functioning genitals to begin with. </p>
<p>Compare this to breast augmentation or reduction for born females- the Church would say that it is OK if the reasons are morally sound- and positive self-image in a person who is suffering from a lack of positive self- esteem would definitely fall in that category. If it were a matter of pure vanity, however, the Church would say no way. Only the person, in prayerful consideration, can determine whether it’s one or the other. So, is it not possible to argue that a trans needs hormones and surgery for a moral reason? IE- increasing a positive self- image in a person who is lacking in it.</p>
<p>Testosterone makes your voice drop, but it’s a one-way street. Trans women’s vocal cords won’t change, though they can feminize their voices and raise the pitch through voice training; Donna could probably say about that more than I can, if she wants to. FTMs, on the other hand, experience the same vocal changes as a non-trans guy going through puberty, complete with awkward voice cracks. Our voices hit the same range as other men in our families: I used to be an alto, now I’m around a low tenor (though I don’t sing chorally anymore, so I don’t know my exact range).</p>
<p>pipmom, thanks for your post. I always appreciate your clear and thoughtful analysis of Catholic teaching as it pertains to the many issues discussed in the CC forum.</p>
<p>I will add to post 297 that in my understanding it would also not be morally acceptable (in Church teaching) to undergo what is referred to as “reassignment” surgery because one merely “feels” like the other gender, without any physiological support for that (such as unexpected hormone changes and other ambiguities).</p>
<p>(People who assert that they are a different gender “trapped in the other gender’s body” are assumed to have a problem with mental alignment, not physical.)</p>