Cher's daughter, Chastity Bono, is changing gender

Cardinal_Fang · June 17, 2009, 10:45pm

If a genetic woman had an excellent singing voice, then, she might transition and find out her/his (hmm, pronouns getting strange here as she transitions to he) new male voice is nothing special, just as boys with gorgeous soprano voices might grow into men with so-so voices. Then again, a genetic woman who liked to sing but who had an ordinary voice before transition might discover a beautiful male voice. Not that this would be a reason to transition; I just think it’s interesting.

But transwomen have to use falsetto voices, if they want a higher register, unless they happened to have high-pitched when they were men?

DonnaL · June 18, 2009, 12:02am

No, not falsetto. There are ways of training a male-sounding voice so that it can sound very naturally female, both in speaking and singing, and so that sounding that way becomes second nature, without any strain. I’ve had friends use voice coaches to very positive effect. It takes quite a long time and a lot of work, though. As I’ve said before, I’m very lucky that I didn’t have to deal at all with trying to change my voice.

And I can’t sing, period – never could, still can’t, never will!

Northstarmom · June 18, 2009, 1:22am

“So quaere, since you brought it up, how does it work when a a singer decides to transition?”

One of my friends with a beautiful baritone voice transitioned to a female, including having surgery and hormones. Apparently she could have had surgery to change her voice, but decided to keep her beautiful baritone singing voice.

claremarie · June 18, 2009, 7:06am

"Helping Clients Forgive: An Empirical Guide: An Empirical Guide for Resolving Anger and Restoring Hope

Does God have a sense of humor or what?"

Indeed he does. Apparently unresolved anger issues are endemic.

“(People who assert that they are a different gender “trapped in the other gender’s body” are assumed to have a problem with mental alignment, not physical.)”

Correct. So I’m not certain that a Catholic therapist (who was working in accord with Church teaching) would support pretending one is the opposite gender, through dressing, voice training, an unofficial name change, etc. The goal of such therapists would rather be to help such a person accept the gender he/she was born with. Whether it works or not – you’d have to ask them. Apparently, they have had some success, especially with children.

claremarie · June 18, 2009, 7:12am

"I read the article that claremarie linked. Here are the issues I have with it.

It certainly places a lot of implied blame on the parents- particularly the father."

Parents are critical to a child’s early development. And the absence of a father (or strong father figure substitute) is linked to a host of problems for children, both boys and girls. Fathers are FAR more important to their children than many people appreciate. Those who see no problem with single mothers or lesbian couples raising children are, in effect, saying that fathers are dispensable (once they have provided their genetic material, of course). They’re not.

jym626 · June 18, 2009, 7:56am

No one is disputing that parents are important to a child’s development. But if someone is claiming that the absence of a father causes sexual orientation issues, I doubt there is evidence to support that.

Pizzagirl · June 18, 2009, 8:33am

No, they are not. That’s like saying that agreeing that there’s nothing wrong with having an only child is saying that siblings are dispensable and unimportant. Clearly you need to work on the concept that there is more than one way that can lead to a good, healthy, solid end. And “all the parts in place” (mother, father, intact marriage) doesn’t mean squat with respect to preventing dysfunction. Plenty of dysfunctional people from perfectly fine families, too. Life’s just more complicated than your simplistic puzzle-piece way of thinking about it.

jym626 · June 18, 2009, 9:17am

How, too, would one explain the fact that siblings growing up in the same house, with the same parents in an intact 2-parent household, some are heterosexual and some are homosexual.

pipmom · June 18, 2009, 9:49am

I agree that parents are important to the development of the child. But, I don’t think that absence of a father or strong father figure necessarily means someone will be gay or trans. My grandfather died when his 3 children were young- my uncle, my dad and my aunt. None of them were gay or trans, yet they grew up with a single mother, during the Depression.

My gay uncle came from a family of 5 with both parents in the household.

There is something more at play here- something we don’t yet know about why some folks are gay and why some folks are trans. I am all for science trying to figure out why. And I am all for the Church respecting the findings of science. Faith and science are not incompatible. In the meantime, as always, compassion and love are the hallmarks of Christian behavior.

I also think that there must surely be some Catholic psychiatrists and psychologists who would support transition for the transgendered and committed same sex relationships for the homosexual, despite current Church teaching on these issues.

epiphany · June 18, 2009, 10:31am

Anyone who thinks that gender and sexuality can be simplistically explained away as genetic or accidental is fooling themselves. Both are complex. The latest evidence tends toward both genetic tendencies (including inborn personality) AND environmental factors as composite influences in sexuality as well as gender identification.

I cannot agree more with this statement:

In fact, I’ll go further. Both mothers and fathers are enormously important and helpful in the formation – not just of gender & sexuality – but in the integration of the psyche which affects the full development of the self. (Does anyone read Jung anymore? Oh sorry, he’s just too passe for the “in” crowd of modern psychology.) Anyone ever heard of archetypes? (I guess those can be excused away also, as outdated concepts. Gosh I’m so glad I stuck with literature as a field of study, despite all the current postmodern theories of interpretation.)

As a young girl I merely appreciated & was grateful beyond words for my strong relationship with my father. I was not conscious at the time of the deeper ways in which having a strong mother and a very-present father (regardless of the fact that their roles were reversed: disciplinarian mother, nurturing father) would forge an unconfused sense of self. Today I am extremely conscious of how the specific & separate genders of each (not roles) have contributed to that selfhood, particularly when I observe all around me the results of many contrasting backgrounds with very different results.

Is it the end of the world, or irreparable, not to have an actual female mother and an actual male father for parents? Of course not. But it is a unique & precious advantage, which in my opinion is more “essential” in the etymology of that word, and more helpful, than monetary wealth.

The ‘Woman’s Liberation’ movement may have been a catalyst for many good things, but I will never forgive those among them who stated straight up (and they did – do not try to excuse this one away) that men are superfluous in the raising of children. That was beyond stupid & irresponsible; it was evil.

UCLA_Band_Mom · June 18, 2009, 10:57am

Yes, it is a one-way street in both directions. The most powerful Sopranos in the history of both Catholic Church music and Opera have been castrated men cross-dressing for the women’s roles. They were known as Castrati.

<a href=“http://www.musicoutfitters.com/castrati.htm[/url]”>http://www.musicoutfitters.com/castrati.htm</a>

spideygirl · June 18, 2009, 2:43pm

clairmarie:

My point was that an advertisement for a book on managing unresolved anger was coincidentally at the bottom of a page advocating emotional and psychological mutilation of children to suit parents’ egos.

Coincidence is how God remains anonymous.

claremarie · June 18, 2009, 2:49pm

“But, I don’t think that absence of a father or strong father figure necessarily means someone will be gay or trans”

Of course it doesn’t, and I did not make that claim.

claremarie · June 18, 2009, 2:50pm

“I also think that there must surely be some Catholic psychiatrists and psychologists who would support transition for the transgendered and committed same sex relationships for the homosexual, despite current Church teaching on these issues.”

Yes, and there are also Catholic physicians who perform abortions. That doesn’t mean that Catholic teaching supports abortions.

DonnaL · June 18, 2009, 2:59pm

Epiphany, do you have anything you can direct people towards that supports your statement about the “latest research” on the causes and/or development of sexuality and gender identification?

claremarie · June 18, 2009, 3:00pm

“Clearly you need to work on the concept that there is more than one way that can lead to a good, healthy, solid end. And “all the parts in place” (mother, father, intact marriage) doesn’t mean squat with respect to preventing dysfunction. Plenty of dysfunctional people from perfectly fine families, too. Life’s just more complicated than your simplistic puzzle-piece way of thinking about it.”

Indeed, life is complicated.
But this concept is not – it is unjust DELIBERATELY to deprive a child of his father (or mother, but the vast majority of same-sex couples seeking to become parents are lesbians) in order to satisfy an adult’s need to be a parent. And it is disingenuous to attempt to justify such deprivation by appeals to “equality” and “fairness” to same-sex couples, or by citing the results of research purporting to establish that children so deprived nevertheless turn out “fine,” so it must be OK.

Pizzagirl · June 18, 2009, 3:01pm

Why is it so important that there be “causes”? What difference does it make? It’s like worrying about what “causes” someone to be left-handed. It’s just a variation. That’s all. The only reason it’s a big deal is that people make it a big deal. OK, this person’s straight and this person’s gay. And this person is right-handed and that person is left-handed. OK, now, moving on …

claremarie · June 18, 2009, 3:04pm

Here’s what the APA says:What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

[Answers</a> to Your Questions For a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality](<a href=“http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html]Answers”>Sex and sexuality)

DonnaL · June 18, 2009, 3:09pm

Pipmom, the only issue I have with your recent post, and pardon me if I’m misinterpreting it, is that you seem to accept as a given that one’s “biological” gender is necessarily congruent with the configuration of the genitals you’re born with, and that accepting “biology” = accepting the sex designation one was assigned at birth based on that configuration.

As far as I’m concerned, I did finally accept my biological gender a number of years ago. In other words, I finally accepted, after almost 40 years of struggle against that inescapable fact, that my biological gender is – and always has been, from the very beginning – female. (Keeping in mind the formulation, albeit somewhat simplistically phrased, that your gender = what’s between your ears, whereas your sex = what’s between your legs.)

I’m not even going to bother pointing out that any statement on the causes of homosexuality, regardless of accuracy, is completely irrelevant to the causes of transsexuality.

But Pizzagirl is right. The causes are irrelevant. The fact is that once someone develops a gender identity, whatever the cause, it is, in almost all cases, unchangeable. Which means that the only relevant question for anyone here should be what the best way is of dealing with situations where someone’s gender identity doesn’t match their sex assigned at birth. Harry Benjamin had the only sensible answer more than 40 years ago, quoted early in this thread.

I, and others like me, constitute living proof that he was right.

Anyone who disputes that is living in fantasyland.

DonnaL · June 18, 2009, 3:25pm

Since certain people like to quote the APA, I guess they have to agree with the following resolution the APA adopted last year:

<a href=“http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/transgender.pdf[/url]”>Internal Server Error;

TRANSGENDER, GENDER IDENTITY, AND GENDER
EXPRESSION NON-DISCRIMINATION

Adopted by the American Psychological Association Council of Representatives August, 2008.

WHEREAS transgender and gender variant people frequently experience prejudice and discrimination and psychologists can, through their professional actions, address these problems at both an individual and a societal level;

WHEREAS the American Psychological Association opposes prejudice and discrimination based on demographic characteristics including gender identity, as reflected in policies including the Hate Crimes Resolution (Paige, 2005), the Resolution on Prejudice Stereotypes and Discrimination (Paige, 2007), APA Bylaws (Article III, Section 2), the Ethical Principles of Psychologists and Code of Conduct (APA 2002, 3.01 and Principle E);

WHEREAS transgender and other gender variant people benefit from treatment with therapists with specialized knowledge of their issues (Lurie, 2005; Rachlin, 2002), and that the Ethical Principles of Psychologists and Code of Conduct state that when scientific or professional knowledge …is essential for the effective implementation of their services or research, psychologists have or obtain the training…necessary to ensure the competence of their services…” (APA 2002, 2.01b);

WHEREAS discrimination and prejudice against people based on their actual or perceived gender identity or expression detrimentally affects psychological, physical, social, and economic well-being (Bockting et al., 2005; Coan et al., 2005; Clements-Nolle, 2006; Kenagy, 2005; Kenagy & Bostwick, 2005; Nemoto et al., 2005; Resolution on Prejudice Stereotypes and Discrimination, Paige, 2007; Riser et al., 2005; Rodriquez-Madera & Toro-Alfonso, 2005; Sperber et al., 2005; Xavier et al., 2005);

WHEREAS transgender people may be denied basic non-gender transition related health care (Bockting et al., 2005; Coan et al., 2005; Clements-Nolle, 2006; GLBT Health Access Project, 2000;Kenagy, 2005; Kenagy & Bostwick, 2005; Nemoto et al., 2005; Riser et al., 2005; Rodriquez-Madera & Toro-Alfonso, 2005; Sperber et al., 2005; Xavier et al., 2005);

WHEREAS gender variant and transgender people may be denied appropriate gender transition related medical and mental health care despite evidence that appropriately evaluated individuals benefit from gender transition treatments (De Cuypere et al., 2005; Kuiper & Cohen-Kettenis, 1988; Lundstrom, et al., 1984; Newfield, et al., 2006; Pfafflin &Junge, 1998; Rehman et al., 1999; Ross & Need, 1989; Smith et al., 2005);

WHEREAS gender variant and transgender people may be denied basic civil rights and protections (Minter, 2003; Spade, 2003) including: the right to civil marriage which confers a social status and important legal benefits, rights, and privileges (Paige, 2005); the right to obtain appropriate identity documents that are consistent with a post-transition identity; and the right to fair and safe and harassment-free institutional environments such as care facilities, treatment centers, shelters, housing, schools, prisons and juvenile justice programs;

WHEREAS transgender and gender variant people experience a disproportionate rate of homelessness (Kammerer et al., 2001), unemployment (APA, 2007) and job discrimination
(Herbst et al., 2007), disproportionately report income below the poverty line (APA, 2007) and experience other financial disadvantages (Lev, 2004);

WHEREAS transgender and gender variant people may be at increased risk in institutional environments and facilities for harassment, physical and sexual assault (Edney, 2004; Minter, 2003; Peterson et al., 1996; Witten & Eyler, 2007) and inadequate medical care including denial of gender transition treatments such as hormone therapy (Edney, 2004; Peterson et al., 1996; Bockting et al., 2005; Coan et al., 2005; Clements-Nolle, 2006; Kenagy, 2005; Kenagy & Bostwick, 2005; Nemoto et al., 2005; Newfield et al., 2006; Riser et al., 2005; Rodriquez-Madera &Toro-Alfonso, 2005; Sperber et al., 2005; Xavier et al., 2005);

WHEREAS many gender variant and transgender children and youth face harassment and violence in school environments, foster care, residential treatment centers, homeless centers and juvenile justice programs (D’Augelli, Grossman, & Starks, 2006; Gay Lesbian and Straight Education Network, 2003; Grossman, D’Augelli, & Slater, 2006);

WHEREAS psychologists are in a position to influence policies and practices in institutional settings, particularly regarding the implementation of the Standards of Care published by the World Professional Association of Transgender Health (WPATH, formerly known as the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association) which recommend the continuation of gender transition treatments and especially hormone therapy during incarceration (Meyer et al., 2001);

WHEREAS psychological research has the potential to inform treatment, service provision, civil rights and approaches to promoting the well-being of transgender and gender variant people;

WHEREAS APA has a history of successful collaboration with other organizations to meet the needs of particular populations, and organizations outside of APA have useful resources for addressing the needs of transgender and gender variant people;

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED THAT APA opposes all public and private discrimination on the basis of actual or perceived gender identity and expression and urges the repeal of
discriminatory laws and policies;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports the passage of laws and policies protecting the rights, legal benefits, and privileges of people of all gender identities and expressions;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports full access to employment, housing, and education regardless of gender identity and expression;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA calls upon psychologists in their professional roles to provide appropriate, nondiscriminatory treatment to transgender and gender variant individuals and encourages psychologists to take a leadership role in working against discrimination towards transgender and gender variant individuals;

THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA encourages legal and social recognition of transgender individuals consistent with their gender identity and expression, including access to identity documents consistent with their gender identity and expression which do not involuntarily disclose their status as transgender for transgender people who permanently socially transition to another gender role;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports access to civil marriage and all its attendant benefits, rights, privileges and responsibilities, regardless of gender identity or expression;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports efforts to provide fair and safe environments for gender variant and transgender people in institutional settings such as supportive living environments, long-term care facilities, nursing homes, treatment facilities, and shelters, as well as custodial settings such as prisons and jails;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports efforts to provide safe and secure educational environments, at all levels of education, as well as foster care environments and juvenile justice programs, that promote an understanding and acceptance of self and in which all youths, including youth of all gender identities and expressions, may be free from discrimination, harassment, violence, and abuse;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports the provision of adequate and necessary mental and medical health care treatment for transgender and gender variant individuals;

THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA recognizes the efficacy, benefit and medical necessity of gender transition treatments for appropriately evaluated individuals and calls upon public and private insurers to cover these medically necessary treatments;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports access to appropriate treatment in institutional settings for people of all gender identities and expressions; including access to appropriate health care services including gender transition therapies;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports the creation of educational resources for all psychologists in working with individuals who are gender variant and
transgender;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports the funding of basic and applied research concerning gender expression and gender identity;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports the creation of scientific and educational resources that inform public discussion about gender identity and gender
expression to promote public policy development, and societal and familial attitudes and behaviors that affirm the dignity and rights of all individuals regardless of gender identity or gender expression;

THEREFORE BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT APA supports cooperation with other organizations in efforts to accomplish these ends.

Cher's daughter, Chastity Bono, is changing gender

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