Cher's daughter, Chastity Bono, is changing gender

Parent Cafe
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<p>Thank you, mousegray. I forgot to mention that part of it!</p>

<p>And, you’re also right that my saying that it hurts to be insulted (slandered, more accurately) doesn’t make me emotionally fragile. I’ve always thought of myself as being a strong person of necessity. Not simply because of the transness, but also because of the serious chronic illness – technically, I suppose, a disability, although I’ve always found it easier to try not to think of it that way – that I’ve had to deal with for more than 30 years now. (Another reason, by the way, that I know the difference between something that’s an “illness” or a disability and something that isn’t.)</p>

<p>And one more thing, Claremarie. It’s certainly not a debate. If it ever was one, you lost it a long time ago.</p>

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<p>Wow - miss a day, miss a lot. DonnaL, thanks for everything you do; your contributions to this board are incredible. It’s also great to see how many people here are supportive and genuinely trying to understand.</p>

<p>In addition to everything that’s been posted here (which is a lot to follow), I’d suggest that people who are curious check out some of the many books and online resources beyond CC. While DonnaL and others have done so much to answer questions and educate people here, it obviously takes a lot of time and energy. Many trans people have already gone to great lengths to share their experiences, and have addressed questions like “how do you know what your gender is?” much more thoroughly than anyone can in this forum.</p>

<p>Some particularly good books that should be in any bookstore are Jamison Green’s Becoming a Visible Man, and Jennifer Finney Boylan’s She’s Not There. Julia Serano’s Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Women on Feminism and the Scapegoating of Femininity is beyond 101-level, but the book is amazing; chapters five and six, in particular, give the best explanation I’ve ever seen of gender and what Serano terms “subconscious sex”. Transgender Emergence and True Selves give mental health providers’ perspectives, and were really helpful to my parents when I came out. There are also a ton of resources on the Internet, ranging from the [APA’s</a> FAQ](<a href=“http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html]APA’s”>Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression) to the blogs, websites, and YouTube channels of trans people documenting their transitions.</p>

<p>I definitely don’t want to discourage people from posting questions or discussing here, and I’ll try to contribute what I can so Donna isn’t totally swamped. Just thought I’d point out that there are many other sources of information out there as well.</p>

<p>(Donna, I hope you don’t mind my posting this, as I’m a relative newcomer and you’ve done the vast majority of the work here :slight_smile: )</p>

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<p>BTW, I specifically linked to the APA’s FAQ because I think they give a fair response to something that’s been discussed here:</p>

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<p>The constant struggle of dealing with one’s body, having one’s identity denied, and confronting misunderstanding, discrimination, and bigotry understandably leads to dysphoria and depression. But trans people’s identities themselves are not delusions or disorders, any more than a non-trans person’s sense of their gender is a delusion; it’s the incongruence between our identities and our bodies that’s at issue. In other words, the fact of being trans is a physical problem, not a mental one.</p>

<p>That said, the last sentence of the quote is particularly important. While I do resent a DSM diagnosis, the fact is that I wouldn’t have access to treatment without that diagnosis, and that will remain the case for trans people unless our health care system changes a lot.</p>

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<p><strong>interrupting this socio/politico/psychological argument to bring this thread back to its original topic: Chaz Bono</strong> ;)</p>

<p>Here’s a link to a photo of Chaz Bono’s girlfriend Jennifer</p>

<p>[Chastity</a> Bono | TMZ.com](<a href=“http://www.tmz.com/category/chastity-bono/]Chastity”>http://www.tmz.com/category/chastity-bono/)</p>

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<p>I hope that Chaz and Jennifer have a lot of happy years together.</p>

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<p>Good for both of them. I wish them continued happiness.</p>

<p>And thanks, quaere. I never intended to end up talking so much about trans issues on CC, let alone my own history, but somehow got into it on this thread (maybe because it’s the biggest trans-related story in the news media since the Pregnant Man, which was before I joined!), and I’ve felt an obligation to try to answer people’s questions, since (with the notable exception of one poster), they’re all being asked in good faith, with an open mind, and out of a genuine desire to learn something about the topic.</p>

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<p>Donna, thank you for sticking around and educating us. You are one courageous lady.</p>

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<p>“A vagina, and the remainder of the female genitals, do not constitute mutilated or amputated male genitals. They’re a reconfigured presence, not an absence. And a woman is not a mutilated man.”</p>

<p>A “reconfigured presence?” A man has a male sexual organ. A woman has female sexual organs. In order to turn a man into a woman, his male sexual organs have to be mutiliated. </p>

<p>A skilled surgeon can do amazing things, but he cannot provide a man with a functioning uterus. And he cannot give a woman a functioning male organ. All he can do is create the APPEARANCE of masculinity or femininity.</p>

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<p>^^ So by that logic, would any woman who has has a hysterectomy, and no longer has a “functioning uterus” or ovaries not be a woman? What of women whose uteri never worked or who had fertility problems for any other reason? What of menopausal women? A persons identity isnt merely defined by the presence or absence of a specific body part.</p>

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<p>More power to him/her.</p>

<p>life, liberty and the pursuit…</p>

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<p>Most hysterectomies are performed for medical reasons – the surgeon is removing an organ that no longer functions correctly.
A woman who cannot conceive or bear a child is suffering from a DISORDER called infertility. Menopause is a natural progression in a woman’s life, though it can also be triggered by the removal of the ovaries.<br>
Removing or mutilating a woman’s sexual organs because she is convinced that she is really a man is in a completely different category. Here, presumably, the surgeon is destroying or damaging organs that are healthy and functioning.</p>

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<p>What I find fascinating is this poster “claremarie’s” persistent need to push “her” point (note scare quotes, ha ha).</p>

<p>Don’t you find that people who take that strident a position generally have something to hide? Call it the Swaggart/Larry Craig/Father Cutie phenomenon: someone takes an overt public viewpoint that is diametrically opposed to their private behavior. So…I think the person who posts as “claremarie” might actually be a guy struggling hard against his own natural tendencies. Let it go, claremarie, you’ve been outed! Your real name is Chaz Marky, right?</p>

<p>But Donna, I’m going to wag my finger and go tsk tsk at you for a sec:

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<p>There are several mentions of mental illness here on this thread that refer to mental illness or the mentally ill, or saying someone is “deranged” or “insane”. I object to this in the strongest terms. People with mental illnesses have it bad enough without the added reminder that these terms are insulting:
“Are you crazy?”
“Are you nuts?”
Which is along the same lines as
“That’s so gay”</p>

<p>I have seen wonderful kids, full of promise, children of friends of mine who had their mental illness manifest in adolescence, and how devastating and difficult that is for their entire family. They don’t need a reminder that it’s a bad thing! They didn’t choose it!</p>

<p>Please don’t refer to mental illness as “an insult”. It is what it is. It happens to people like any other illness. If someone said “Are you diabetic?” would you say it’s an insult? No, but “Are you insane?” is. Shouldn’t be.</p>

<p>I love our president, but I was not happy when he made that crack about bowling like “The Special Olympics”, and he was properly chastised and enlightened.</p>

<p>Anyone can learn to be careful with their phraseology, even you, Donna, because like gender issues, issues of mental health can be extremely personal for some people.</p>

<p>But I love ya, though.</p>

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<p>Thank you, brave Donna L for all your contributions to this thread. The world is changing- for the better-my children’s high school, their colleges,my church (Unitarian Universalist), my employer (a hospital), my extended family, have all been welcoming places for trans people. I am not a trans person, but I am a supporter.</p>

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<p>DonnaL:

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<p>It always amazes me when people who attack others in a completely unkind and unfair way get their knickers all in a knot when it happens to them.</p>

<p>As for Claremarie and her input on this thread, she is not the only one speaking in a political way, and I certainly do not think she is the only one who has said insulting things here.</p>

<p>As for Claremarie and her opinions on this topic, the fact that she was free to express them here presented ample opportunity for superb and persuasive responses. The sum total of this thread is an excellent product, and one which would influence anyone reading it to be more open-minded and openhearted on the subject. I doubt the thread would ever have achieved the intense honesty (fueled by authentic emotions) that it did with out the freedom that accompanied it.</p>

<p>Claremarie’s misguided views do not need to be muzzled. They were soundly defeated by truth and effective communication.</p>

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<p>Are you referring to me? When have I ever attacked people in that kind of personal way, telling them that they’re delusional and that they’re not who they are? Forcing them to defend every aspect of who they are, legally and otherwise – precisely as if a native-born American citizen insulted a naturalized citizen by saying, “you’re not an American, I don’t care what the law says, you’re just pretending to be one”?</p>

<p>I certainly vigorously attack viewpoints I disagree with, but I think that’s a very different thing. The only time I ever severely disagreed with you that I remember was quite a long time ago, on the subject of how best to insure Israel’s continued existence, and whether it’s appropriate for American Jews to express disagreement with decisions made by the Israeli government (as I believe it is). If I personally insulted you in the course of that discussion, which I don’t recall doing – certainly not in any way comparable to what Claremarie continually does, here and elsewhere – I apologize.</p>

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<p>Point taken, AnuddhaMom. I’m not perfect, needless to say, and it’s difficult sometimes not to respond in kind when one is being attacked. Still, I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with objecting to being referred to as severely mentally ill and delusional when you aren’t, especially when the intention of the person referring to you as such is to insult you. For example, I know there’s nothing wrong with being transgendered, but I also know that the people who make fun of Ann Coulter’s adam’s apple or call her “Mann Coulter” are, in fact, insulting her, and that they intend to do so – exhibiting both misogyny and transphobia at the same time. Being on the liberal side of the political spectrum doesn’t excuse it, either.</p>

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<p>Putting aside the argument over mental disorder (which seems a red herring to me anyway, subjective, arbitrary, and irrelevant, except for insurance reimbursment), what do you mean by that? I understand that the physical body is not aligned with one’s own perception of gender, but do you also mean that there is a physical, neural reason (brain wiring, for ex) for this misalignment? Has there been research specifically on this? I would think there would be broad, phenomenological applications on brain function if there is such research.</p>

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<p>I think I mentioned in one of my zillion earlier posts here that yes, there is and has been, for probably the last ten years or, ongoing neurological research on that subject. There are quite a few early results pointing to certain aspects of certain parts of trans people’s brains – even prior to hormone therapy – that differ from those of other people of their birth sex, and resemble those of people not of their birth sex. All preliminary, and nothing conclusive (let alone anything explaining why such differences occur, that is, whether it’s genetic or some prenatal hormonal influence, the latter being the more popular theory – based, in part, on the fact that transness seems to be present with considerably more than the usual frequency in “DES sons,” something it’s quite possible I was). Given how complicated the human brain is, I’m sure it’ll be many years, if ever, before any sort of remotely definitive answer is known.</p>

<p>To me, the cause shouldn’t really matter so much, though. There’s no question that for many, many people, being trans is something they know they are from early childhood, that regardless of the age of conscious realization of transness, transness is not something anyone chooses to be, and that there’s really nothing – despite innumerable attempts – that can change who trans people are, whatever the cause of their being trans. I think that it’s far more important what trans people do (and are able to do) with their lives, and that they have the same basic civil rights that other discriminated-against groups have, than why they are who they are. Even though I know full well that people in general often tend to be more accepting if they believe you were “born that way” (which my heart and soul tell me I was, even though I can’t provide you with a blood test result proving it!).</p>

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<p>I don’t ordinarily like to whip out the science – first, because I’m a classical archaeology student and not a biologist – second, because the work that’s been done is still pretty inconclusive. But there has been research that suggests a neurological basis for gender identity. Probably the most famous article is this one: “A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality”, which found that in trans people, a component of the brain that is sexually dimorphic corresponds to identified gender rather than natal sex. (There are a few parts of the brain that are sexually dimorphic, which usually means that they’re sized differently in men and women.) The researchers also found that this variation had nothing to do with whether or not the subjects had received hormone therapy - that is, it was part of the fully developed adult brain and not an effect of medical treatment. The abstract is [url=<a href=“Qualitätsmanagement | WEKA Shop”>Qualitätsmanagement | WEKA Shop]here[/url</a>] and a reprint of the article is [url=<a href=“Qualitätsmanagement | WEKA Shop”>Qualitätsmanagement | WEKA Shop]here[/url</a>].</p>

<p>As for the etiology of transgender identity… the theory I’ve seen most widely cited goes like this: Fetal development involves two separate spikes in hormones – one that affects the development of the body, and one that affects the development of the brain (including the sexually dimorphic parts). Most of the time, this occurs fairly predictably. However, in some cases a hormone shower occurs early or late, or the balance of hormones is unusual. This is what we know. The theory is that the second hormone shower influences the formation of gender identity (and/or what Julia Serano calls “subconscious sex”: the brain’s expectation about what the body should look like). Mistimed or unusual hormone showers lead to a discrepancy between people’s gender/subconscious sex and their physical development. This is reinforced by studies of the sexual and behavioral development of other primates, which have shown pretty much the same thing. (I’m paraphrasing from a book that I don’t have on hand at the moment, so if I’ve misstated anything, please correct me.)</p>

<p>The point that I meant to make by describing transgender identity as a physical issue rather than a mental one, is that the thing that is “disordered” is our bodies, not our minds, and that appropriate and effective treatment focuses on changing our physical sex, rather than trying to change our gender identities. (Doctors and therapists who’ve tried to do the latter have universally failed.)</p>

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<p>Apparently, Chastity/Chaz Bono is typical of GID patients, a disproportionate percentage of whom come from dysfunctional families and/or parents with their own psychiatric issues. Certainly, it’s striking to read the various case studies of GID patients or those who seek sexual reassignment. The father is often completely out of the picture.</p>

<p>“My own study of the family variables associated with childhood gender disturbance was based upon a subset of the boys we evaluated for gender disturbance, for whom we completed three independent psychological evaluations, each of which took into account these factors: Identity statements, cross dressing history and frequency, cross gender role play behavior, parent-child relationships, parental attitude toward gender behaviors, peer relationships, social and academic adjustment, emotional adjustment, and congruence of diagnoses by independent psychologists.
Two other clinical psychologists, in addition to myself, completed independent diagnostic evaluations of each subject, and rated each subject on two scales one scale for gender role behavior and another for gender identity. Each of these scales constituted a five-point continuum from “normal” to “profound” disturbance (Bentler, Rekers & Rosen, 1979; Rekers, 1988a; Rekers & Morey, 1989a, 1989b, 1989c, 1990).
One of the most striking findings in the families of these boys I studied was the incidence of psychiatric problems. Eighty percent of the mothers and 45% of the fathers had a history of mental health problems and/or psychiatric treatment. It may be possible that these figures are somewhat inflated compared to the larger population of gender disturbed boys in that parents who have sought treatment for themselves may be more likely to seek treatment for their children. However, these findings suggest that the parents of gender disturbed boys have an unusual degree of psychological maladjustment.
Our findings with regard to paternal deprivation in these boys parallels much of the literature on the detrimental effects of father absence on normal psychosexual development.
In the boys who were classified as the most profoundly disturbed, father absence was observed for all cases. In the remaining less disturbed cases, father absence was found in 54% of the cases. Using the nonparametric Fisher’s exact probability test, this difference was found to be statistically significant.”</p>

<p>[Gender</a> Identity Disorder](<a href=“http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html]Gender”>http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/rekers.html)</p>

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<p>Well, I’m interested in the how’s and why’s of a lot of human conditions. Not so much “the cause”, which can be twisted to all kinds of agendas. But thanks, Donna, for answering.</p>

<p>I know a girl (in her early 20s) who I’ve known since infancy who has always wanted to dress like a boy and identified with boys. She’s a lovely person, no mental illness that I’ve ever noticed. We all saw it as her “quirk”, although it has probably caused her parents some consternation. I remember when she was little, she would get frustrated when being called a girl. I’ve always suspected that she thinks of herself as male, although lately, she’s learned to keep it to herself. She’s lucky in that I know her parents can handle it, whatever happens.</p>