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<p>JHS, did you mean that statement exactly the way you stated it? What I mean is, can’t persons convert to Judaism? I thought they could.</p>
<p>What I’ve always wondered is this: what percentage of churchgoers, if absolutely forced to admit the truth to themselves, would concede they don’t actually agree with (or perhaps even fully understand) the tenets of their religion, but rather attend church for cultural and/or social reasons.</p>
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<p>Since pretty much all religions are, at some level, based on or believe in supernatural events and/or supernatural beings, it would be hard for human living in this world to claim they “fully understand” everything about the tenets of their religion.</p>
<p>Quoting Dennis Prager from years ago at the Brandeis Bardin Institute: Jews do not seek converts because during the middle ages doing so would mean death. Obviously now, although depending on the reform, conservative, orthodox, or reconstructionist, the ways of conversion differ, there are Jews by Choice. </p>
<p>Another Pragerism: To be a good Jew one doesn’t have to believe in God. One must believe in and do good deeds and lead an ethical life. An afterlife, should there be one, will then take care it itself. And if there is no heaven or hell, the world will remember you as a righteous person.</p>
<p>“How do you explain the difference between Jesus, the father, the son and the Holy Ghost?”</p>
<p>Water, Ice, Steam… different manifestations/states of the same substance</p>
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<p>Really? Is this a commonly held belief of Jews? I have always viewed Judaism as a religion which specifically revolves around a belief in God. What you are describing seems more like living the culture of being a Jew rather than identifying it as one’s religion.</p>
<p>Then again, I am not Jewish and can’t say much about it with any kind of authority.</p>
<p>I grew up Catholic and still attend church, but not very disciplined.</p>
<p>Church/Religion/Faith/God are all different to me. I enjoy going to church with my family, it allows us time to be together and think about things more important than what we normally focus on. It’s important to be a good student, good employee, good athlete - and most of our attention goes to those things, but I enjoy taking time to sit with my family and focus on being a good person, being a good neighbor, being thoughtful, and looking at the world in a more philosophical way.</p>
<p>You could do that without church, church is just one way to do it. Our one priest speaks well and teaches well through his homilies. It’s comforting and thought provoking. </p>
<p>We go as a family, then usually go have brunch afterwards. Lots of good conversations have happened in our post-church meals, not one about religion, just taking time to be a family.</p>
<p>I just use Catholicism as a way to show my appreciation. I could do the same as a Buddhist or Hindu, it doesn’t matter. Since I grew up as a Catholic I naturally feel their rituals the most comforting. I enjoy going to confession (as much as one can enjoy it) and I think it’s good for my children as well. I think telling someone else your flaws, the process of admission - looking someone in the eye and telling them you struggle as a person is a good way of recognizing your shortcomings. It keeps you from rationalizing your behavior in your mind, at least for me. It’s really no different than seeing a therapist. Most of my confessions deal with life struggles than simply providing a priest with a checklist of sins. It can be very revealing, must like a counseling session is for some people.</p>
<p>My children do hear me pray, usually just before meals. When they were young children we’d say a quick prayer together when they were getting tucked into bed, generic - please bless my family and friends, please help people in need, please help me be a good person, ect. </p>
<p>When they grow up, I hope they remember some of the lessons and use them to live a humble life. I don’t care what religion you practice, or if you practice no religion at all, I just think it’s important for people to humble themselves, to live generously and self-reflect on the life they live.</p>
<p>As one who was brought up in the culture of the Histadrut and not in a synagogue, I can’t say that Dennis was extrapolating. But he was from a religious background and knew his Jewish stuff, secular and religious. I can say that since modern Judaism doesn’t stress heaven/hell/afterlife that a belief in God for the sake of salvation may not be critical. I do know many religious Jews who are agnostics, but yet they attend synagogue and perform prayers and rituals.</p>
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<p>I think these are very well-stated examples of the concept that people (especially as we get older) feel a need for spiritual expression, desire to join others in contemplation, desire to seek redemption or moral improvement, desire for comforting rituals, etc. For some people, these desires exist simultaneously with a rejection of the idea that supernatural beings exist (God) or supernatural physical states exist (heaven). (I am not assuming this is your belief, GovAffairs.)</p>
<p>This split seems perfectly logical to me. However, in most churches, I think these people feel compelled to pretend they believe in the “supernatural” party line in order to avail themselves of the other experiences they actually seek. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>Deist. I’m not sure if there is one or several but I figure I do not need an organization or structure to help me find him/her/them or for him/her/them to find me.</p>
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<li><p>Jews and belief in God. Unlike most Christian sects, traditional Judaism doesn’t focus much on what’s in your heart. It’s more about behavior, observance of the laws, membership in the community. Certainly observant Jews do many things that are absurd if one doesn’t believe in God. But there’s a long tradition of Jews being skeptical about the existence of God, and following the law either on a conditional belief that God may exist, or on the basis of a belief that the world is better off if people act as if God exists. In my experience, the latter is a very common belief among people who consider themselves observant Jews (and are so considered by others). Of course, the majority of observant Jews probably DO believe in God; that’s not forbidden by any means. It’s just not required.</p></li>
<li><p>Conversion. The structure of Judaism is very tribal: God made a deal with this specific ethnic group, told them to follow specific laws and God would take care of them. There was never any notion that anyone other than this particular tribe was ever supposed to follow all of those laws, and membership in the tribe was never a matter of choice (something that’s more or less true about every tribe everywhere). Traditionally, there was never any concept of conversion in the Christian or Muslim sense: someone not born Jewish making a rational decision to become Jewish, or having a mystical revelation of truth leading him or her to adopt Judaism. There was always, however, a legal procedure to resolve issues about whether someone was really Jewish or not – cases where there was no access to adequate records, or someone may have been lost or kidnapped, orphans with no known parents. A religious court would hear evidence and rule whether a particular person was or was not a Jew, and some (not all) of the evidence concerned the person’s knowledge and observance of Jewish law. In recent years, meaning the last century or so, this procedure has be adapted to permit someone who was clearly not born Jewish to be accepted as a Jew. The legal theory is essentially that a Jewish soul was somehow mistakenly born to a gentile. It’s not unlike the psychological vetting people have to go through if they want a sex change operation. As a practical matter, almost all branches of Judaism now permit conversion, but all of them make it a difficult process to go through.</p></li>
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<p>what a breath of fresh air - the open mindedness here on this thread.</p>
<p>I was born Catholic, and at the age of 7, I declared to my parents that I don’t want to be Catholic or for that matter religious, and they let me do what I wanted. My husband is Jewish and considers that part of his identity sacrosanct, but he does not really believe in God. My kids were converted to Judaism at birth (since I did not convert), and went through Bar Mitzvah. We decide to “convert” them because we wanted them to have a clear ethnic identity (I preferred Jewish identification for them better than my own ethnic identity, which I very consciously and intentionally rejected for myself - because its culture and value in many ways were so antithetical to my personal belief). They consider themselves Jews, but do not believe in God either. </p>
<p>I have a serious medical condition, and I frequent an Internet Forum for people with same medical issues (cancer that affect only women). The site is an amazing source of information on latest clinical trials and research activities due to a select group of women who are dedicated researchers. </p>
<p>However, I also encounter a tone of discussion there that I never have an opportunity to encounter anywhere else. Chest thumping, Bible waving aggressive religiosity. Where are the Jews and people of different faith? Don’t they ever have this medical problem? The other day I got a private message from a woman on how I feel about death and whether this should propel me to seek God’s mercy before it is too late (WOW!!!). </p>
<p>Half in jest and half in truth, I said: I feel profoundly secure in my total lack of faith in God. Because, in a way, I give God, if he/she indeed exists, much more credit than many of his/her so called true and zealous believers, because I think s/he that created this whole universe and owns its past, present, and future, must be much bigger than a petty, vindictive teacher who says to a honest, hard working student I am going to give you an F even though you did everything right and did very well in test, because you did not suck up to me and ONLY me. (if any of the parent on CC saw a teacher behaving like this, there will be a riot in that school!)</p>
<p>If God truly exists and s/he is as grand and all encompassing as they make him/her out to be, and if Heaven truly exists, s/he will let me in as long as I live a good, moral life, which I try to do and succeed as well or not well as most of the chest thumping fundamentalists do. I have always lived by my secular, humanistic moral code to do the right thing live honestly with integrity, treat others with respect, share charity, etc. And, truthfully, other than the unquestioning and unconditional acceptance of God part, this, I found over the years, is no less lofty a moral code than any of the moral code I have seen very assertive religious people abide by, seen by the way they behave, not what they preach. </p>
<p>My friends are Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, and non believers. If I go by the way they conduct their personal lives and treat others, I couldnt tell you who is a believer and who is not or who has what kind of religion. Caveat is, none of my friends are dogmatic type who believe their way is the only way.</p>
<p>This little rambling of mine is in no way to show disrespect for believers and people with strong faith. I always felt that they are blessed, and I send three cheers to them. I am sharing my thoughts as above because I felt that in this country, non-believers are always put in a defensive position regardless of how virtuously they actually live. Just watch the way media and organized groups going after political candidates who dont seem to have a strong religious affiliation. Can you imagine a national political candidate ever confessing agnosticism, let along atheism in this country? Contemporary American culture is a very intolerant one when it comes to honest, law abiding , and yes, virtuous non-believers, who are just as good citizens as any overtly religious person. </p>
<p>So, here. I am outing myself. I am a proud non believer, who would at the same time fight for everybodys right to believe in whatever religion they choose, as my past tax exempt donations to all sorts of nonprofit organizations will attest to. The only right I dont want to protect is the right of some people to impose their belief on other people, either directly or indirectly (trying to force creationism into the public school curriculum falls into this category).</p>
<p>agreed-good post</p>
<p>Outstanding post.</p>
<p>I find it hard to believe in a vengeful discriminatory supreme being who turns his/her back on good people because, while they are ethical and conduct their lives rightously. Again, from the Brandeis Bardin Institute (which was were I learned much about Judaism, the religious aspect.)</p>
<p>Eli Weisel (author and survivor of the Auschwitz death camp) was asked how could he believe in God after Auschwitz. His answer was interesting: (loosely quoted from his lecture.) God was absent when the camps were created. God’s presence was there when a scrap of bread was shared.</p>
<p>Conversion among Jews has been accepted as far back as the Book of Ruth: “Your people shall be my people; your God, my God.” However, the rabbis made it as difficult as they could to convert; they wanted only those who really wanted to be Jews. It was not easy to be a Jew and still isn’t in much of the world.</p>
<p>And I agree that Judaism does not require belief in God. The concept is “Do. Then belief will come, if it comes.” It’s based in part on the story in Exodus - God gave the Israelites a double portion of manna for the Sabbath, well before He revealed the importance or the laws of the Sabbath on Mt. Sinai. And those who are non-Jews but are good individuals (often called Righteous Gentiles) have a place in the World to Come.</p>
<p>sunriseeast - thanks so much for sharing. Great post.</p>
<p>And I’m so sorry that someone had to attack you in a time that you’re most vulnerable, in the name of a religion that have historically been affiliated with. It is stories like yours that make me, more and more, question whether I wish to continue any affiliation with it.</p>
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<p>Our teacher said this during my World Religions class in high school (fascinating social studies elective). I was quite taken with this idea, and gave some consideration to converting… about gave my Episcopalian parents a heart attack. As mentioned above, I have gone on to become a Unitarian starting about 5 years. Which I do not subject my children to in any way. D1 attends with me, and sought out a UU church in the city where she has her internship now. She loves it, but it is of her own choosing. D2 has no interest at this time, has never attended, and that is entirely her choice as well.</p>
<p>I saw David Brooks (NYT columnist and author) speak a couple of days ago. He said his wife converted to Judaism after she married him and became a rabbi. He told some jokes about this 
But the question above made me think of it.</p>
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<p>Oh, I am sure the woman who sent that IM means well in her own mind. She is trying to rescue my soul. </p>
<p>I am still puzzled by this whole dogma surrounding religion by certain sects and people that present their beloved God to be such a petty and vengeful bully who plays favoritism so shamelessly. “do this, and I will smite you. do that, and I will send you to hell. However, you can do a truly awful thing, but as long as you confess love to me at the last minute, I will grant you eternal salvation in heaven with me” In my humble opinion, anyone who presents their god in this way diminishes and trivializes their beloved god in the most profound manner. </p>
<p>If there is indeed supreme being who created this whole universe, I would think that being would transcend all this human pettiness and truly be an embodiment of universal love and wisdom.</p>
<p>My husband, we are Jewish, says “I don’t believe in God. But if I’m wrong, wouldn’t s/he forgive me? S/He created me to be the skeptical guy I am.”</p>
<p>Was raised Catholic, H Hindu. Never liked the concept of needing to be saved, Easter time always bothered me. Therefore have rejected Christianity and Judaism (can’t have Christians without Jewish mythology- the term is correct in the dictionary). Can’t take on the Hindu things since they aren’t part of my background- don’t relate to them. A combination of both really is best- taking the charitable philosophy of Christianity with the attitudes of Hinduism. Other religions often bother me- especially those that treat women unfairly/unequally. I am just as strong in my beliefs as any in any formal religion. Was it Thomas Paine who said “My religion is to do good?”</p>
<p>I consider myself a deist/humanist at most, H and S atheists. We exposed our son to both church and temple plus reading the literature in children’s versions. There’s a lot in common between the two approaches to religion. He has a sense of reverence when in the church/temple (good when attending extended family events). With so many conflicts of what is the truth between all religions - even brands of the same one- it’s obvious none can be correct. All manmade. Also all contain contradictions.</p>
<p>The only problem with not joining is the lack of social connections- but we can’t belong to be involved and tell the others how wrong they are or be dishonest with ourselves. We did Hindu prayers with son when he was little- I couldn’t make him repeat things I couldn’t agree with in Catholicism. His preschool was Christian based- several nonchristian kids and the religion didn’t stick.</p>
<p>Sociologists/psychologists can explain our need for religion. From explaining the unknown to creating a structured society and controlling behavior and feeling special (chosen). I prefer an internal locus of control to the external one that many use as a crutch- hopefully the threats for an afterlife are not the only reasons adults behave well.</p>
<p>My sermon for the day. Won’t convert anyone, but then no one can convert me, either.</p>
<p>JHS- based on your statements there is a problem many have with Jews- they’re a member of an exclusive club others can’t join, yet neccesary for Christianity to exist. Frustrating to not be chosen yet need the mythology.</p>