China raises the bar.

jym626 · July 22, 2011, 2:03pm

Have the Chinese found their version of the "Loch Ness Monster yet? Seems they were spotting that hoax back in 2003. [China’s</a> ‘Loch Ness Monster’ resurfaces - smh.com.au](<a href=“http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/15/1058035005776.html]China’s”>China's 'Loch Ness Monster' resurfaces)

complete with youtube videos from 2007 [Chinese</a> Lake Monster Video: Real or Fake Loch Ness? - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com](<a href=“http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/402358/chinese_lake_monster_video_real_or.html?cat=16]Chinese”>http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/402358/chinese_lake_monster_video_real_or.html?cat=16)

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 5:14pm

““No kidding! Chinese Air Pollution Deadliest in World, Report Says””

Indeed, air quality in Albuquerque> Los Angeles> Hong Kong> Shenzhen. But it isn’t out of line for a developing nation such as China, and also being the manufacturing center of the world, especially considering emissions per capita, for which the US is the worst (about 4.3 times of that of China) and cumulative emissions since the mid-19th century, for which the US is also the worst (about 3.5 times of that of China).

Current Emissions (millions of tons): 7,249.8 (China), 7,098 (US), 5,342.3 (EU).

Per Capita Emissions (tons per person): 5.6 (China), 23.9 (US), 10.9 (EU).

Cumulative Emissions (millions of tons): 92,950 (China), 328,263.6 (US), 301,940 (EU).

[Greenhouse</a> gas emissions soaring around the globe | Worldfocus](<a href=“http://worldfocus.org/blog/2009/12/07/greenhouse-gas-emissions-soaring-around-the-globe/8755/]Greenhouse”>Greenhouse gas emissions soaring around the globe | WORLDFOCUS)

And China has become the leading global manufacturer of clean energy, [China</a> surges past competitors in clean energy technology | Worldfocus](<a href=“http://worldfocus.org/blog/2010/02/11/china-surges-past-competitors-in-clean-energy-technology/9641/]China”>China surges past competitors in clean energy technology | WORLDFOCUS) . You may want to see and “smell” the difference between Shenzhen (where the factories have been established through organic growth since the 1980s) and for example, Pudong (where the industrial parks are planned with clean technology in mind).

““But on the topic of the thread, China is the biggest source of pirated/counterfeited goods in the world, including drugs, luxury goods, DVDs, electronics, auto parts, and lots more.””

The main driver behind these behaviors is demand ----- there are many buyers for value items. When there is a will (to buy), there is a way (to produce). Once the GDP per capita in China, would approach about half of those in the developed nations, the counterfeit markets would correspondingly shrink. But it may take a few more decades. Furthermore, some economists would argue that the counterfeits, can foster brand affinity among the lower-income buyers, who can’t afford the real items now (and hence, no actual loss in market share), but potentially would later upgrade and purchase the real items (and hence, eventually beneficial to market share). By the way, Americans such as Celine Dion and Kobe Bryant, among many others, also shop for counterfeits in China. And I don’t see any complaints about these people supporting the counterfeit markets over there.

““Whether they really mean to crack down on it will be interesting to see.””

It may not be enough, but they did what they did. And you don’t really want to guess too much about unobservable motives. :-)

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 5:15pm

““I respectfully disagree. Comparisons of the pre-PCT “Wild West” world with the present times are meaningless,…””

Respectfully, not so. As a matter of fact, it is analogous to the Wild, Wild West, for the market economy in China. For example, the factories in China employ far more fluidic contract structures and hence, are more adept to changing market conditions, than those in the developed nations. You may also feel the bubbling vibrancy and the contagious eagerness to succeed in China. It is the Wild, Wild, West in economics terms over there. :-)

““and the number of arrests touted by the Chinese government, even if it is true, is simply laughable for a country that has a population of over a billion and manufactures a lion’s share of the world’s counterfeit goods.””

It is far easier to be an armchair commentator some 10,000 miles away, than actually managing about 1.4 billion people in real life. :-)

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 5:16pm

““Then, not everybody does have an entire government not only condone but organize massive cheating through documentation fraud and pressure on “impartial” judges.””

You mean something like the Fed resisting an audit, while the US Congress condoning such behaviors? Or the alphabet programs available from the US government, to certain “banksters” who claim to be too big to fail? Or the no-bid contracts in Iraq, awarded to entities linked to a former US VP?.. You know, as I have mentioned earlier, it is apparently pot vs. kettle afterall. :-)

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 5:18pm

““Sure, and what percentage? Every year I meet very well educated and well read Chinese students, coming over for their PhD, and none of them know squat about so many things the rest of us know about because of their lack of access.””

On the one hand, graduate students from China typically live in the laboratories and the libraries, so-to-speak. On the other hand, they tend to avoid certain subjects, because of established behaviors from home. Staying silent or playing dumb are sometimes a form of self-protection, which can’t be equated with don’t know squat. :-)

““Labor is extremely cheap. Its a great investment.””

Okay, I shall play with some numbers. The last time I saw it on a newspaper, sources claim to pay RMB $ 1 per message. So if you were to flood the Internet forums with these messages you may need at least, let’s say 1 billion messages per day, which would cost about US $57 B per year. It would be more effective for the Chinese government to funnel this amount to news agencies and PR companies instead. These hired messages exist in certain forums mostly within China, but it is only your imagination that they are all over the Internet. :-)

““Then again, they can get folks like you doing it for free I suppose…notice how every criticism is met with a counterargument by you. I actually find that scary.””

You may want drop the ad hominem. It only shows that you have nothing else to offer in the discussion. :-)

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 5:20pm

““How about we talk about Foxconn now?””

Foxconn is a Taiwanese company. So do you want to talk about how Taiwanese capitalists have been exploiting mainland Chinese workers? Or how Apple forced Chinese workers, some of them pregnant women, to use toxic cleaners in the factories?..

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 5:22pm

““I’m currently in Europe and the fake Apple store story is in the news here. It’s appalling and nothing to brag about, and trying to defend it – it’s indefensible.””

Actually these news are good, in the long run, for China. Believe it or not, the Chinese government and the foreign joint ventures, do respond to news exposures. The sooner that dirts are revealed, the earlier the recovery. Why defending about it? Spread it out. Too bad, Murdoch can’t find a foothold in China. :-)

““No wonder smart Chinese kids want to come here. I don’t see a big demand among Western kids for Chinese colleges.””

It probably has more to do with the perceived networking clout than anything else. For example, Harvard opens doors worldwide, but Tsinghua opens doors mostly within China or part of Asia.

BunsenBurner · July 22, 2011, 5:32pm

Re: Post #23: LOL, kiddo, did you even read what I wrote? It had nothing to do with contracts, factories, labor, etc. Lack of basic reading comprehension and excessive verbiage = tell-tale signs of… a ■■■■■. :)

Hunt · July 22, 2011, 6:02pm

I will just point out this one example among your litany of lame excuses. I don’t think Americans should buy Chinese counterfeits.

But I am glad you recognize that China tolerates this kind of crime because it is still a backward nation. Perhaps it will stop doing these things as it moves closer to international standards of environmental protection, economic cooperation, and human rights. One can only hope.

Pizzagirl · July 22, 2011, 6:14pm

Oh, well, if Celine Dion does it, that’s ok (isn’t she Canadian?).

Pizzagirl · July 22, 2011, 6:18pm

“For example, the factories in China employ far more fluidic contract structures and hence, are more adept to changing market conditions, than those in the developed nations.”

Translation - if I can find an 8 year old to work for the equivalent of 10 cents a day, Ill drop those overpaid 10 year olds in a heartbeat.

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 6:34pm

““Re: Post #23: LOL, kiddo, did you even read what I wrote? It had nothing to do with contracts, factories, labor, etc. Lack of basic reading comprehension and excessive verbiage = tell-tale signs of… a ■■■■■.””

Hi Grandma (in a respectful way). Please open up your mind and learn to comprehend in economics terms. Otherwise, you may skip my messages. It doesn’t matter much in the grand scheme of things. :-)

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 6:37pm

““I will just point out this one example among your litany of lame excuses. I don’t think Americans should buy Chinese counterfeits.””

““Oh, well, if Celine Dion does it, that’s ok (isn’t she Canadian?).””

You both may have read it the wrong way. It wasn’t an excuse for supporting counterfeits, but merely pointing out that there are those complaining about counterfeits on the one hand and yet, buying counterfeits on the other hand. :-)

““But I am glad you recognize that China tolerates this kind of crime because it is still a backward nation.””

Your words, not mine. For example, you don’t “tolerate” cancer, because you can’t cure it for the moment. And talking about being “backward”, the US is so “advanced” that it has to source China, a “backward” nation, to construct bullet trains. :-)

““Perhaps it will stop doing these things as it moves closer to international standards of environmental protection, economic cooperation, and human rights. One can only hope.””

Of course, it takes time. For example, almost a century ago there were quotas for Jews in the Ivys and women weren’t allowed to vote in the US. And about half a century ago there were segregation in the public schools. They are all history now. :-)

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 6:38pm

““Translation - if I can find an 8 year old to work for the equivalent of 10 cents a day, Ill drop those overpaid 10 year olds in a heartbeat.””

Did you mention elsewhere, that you have a MBA from Kellogg? You should do better than the above. :-)

BunsenBurner · July 22, 2011, 6:50pm

Are you saying that you are managing 1.4 billion people… Welcome to CC, President Jintao. LOL.

StillGreen · July 22, 2011, 7:20pm

““Are you saying that you are managing 1.4 billion people… Welcome to CC, President Jintao. LOL.””

Actually, I am not interested in random one-liners. But for you, Grandma (in a respectful way), I am nobody important and apparently to you, I am a ■■■■■. Your time canbe better spent elsewhere. Adios. :-)

kxc1961 · July 22, 2011, 9:56pm

Re: Post #31. It is not surprising that capital chases after cheaper labor. If you have a choice of hiring a 20 year-old with no experience or a 60 year old with years of experience and high salary expectation, what would you do? It is universal. Granted that hiring underage workers is illegal in many countries, including US and China. Even so, we do see kids picking strawberries in the field by the Central Valley of CA and near the edge of Yellow River. Humans are greedy. It is our universal trait. Making illegal copies of Apple product is as wrong as pirating songs over the internet. We have plenty of folks doing this in China as well as in US.

Hunt · July 23, 2011, 12:38pm

You named two people, one of whom isn’t even an American. But the biggest problem is with counterfeits that people don’t even know they are buying, like counterfeit pharmaceuticals. People die from that.

And it’s pretty lame to always point to somebody else’s past wrongs in trying to justify one’s own faults.

StillGreen · July 23, 2011, 6:26pm

““You named two people, one of whom isn’t even an American.””

You missed the points again. :-)

<ol>
<li>The counterfeit market is driven by demand, whether the buyers are American, Canadian, or whoever else is secondary. The mentioning of certain foreigners shopping for counterfeits in China, is only to show the hypocrisy of those complaining about counterfeits on the one hand and yet, buying counterfeits on the other hand. These same people who condemn counterfeits, are also feeding the counterfeit markets.</li>
<li>There will always be those who find ways to produce them, when there is abundant demand for counterfeits. Although the Chinese police has arrested 9,000 suspects and closed down 12,000 factories in the last 9 months, you canbe assured that another 9,000 people will setup another 12,000 factories in the near future. This situation would likely subside when the GDP per capita in China, would approach about half of those in the developed nations, such that the middle class in China, can afford to buy brand-name items and don’t care much about counterfeits anymore. But it is still a few decades away.</li>
<li>At the meantime, Chinese police would continue to arrest more suspects, while newcomers would continue to setup other factories in satisfying the continuous demand, including those from foreigners who condemn counterfeits on the one hand and yet, buying counterfeits on the other hand. If you still were to blame the Chinese government for not doing enough, then you have overestimated the influence of the government officials and underestimated the influence of the market economy.</li>
</ol>

““But the biggest problem is with counterfeits that people don’t even know they are buying,””

This is out of your imagination. The counterfeit markets in China are quite developed, that the sellers would openly acknowledge that those are indeed counterfeits. [Unless the customer is an innocent foreigner, then you would become a fish in a barrel. :-)] They actually categorize the items in terms of production quality, where Cat A is almost as good as the brand-name items, while some of them can even be ordered custom made. Counterfeits are mostly sold at deep discounts to the “official” prices of the brand-name items. This is the reason that some economists would argue that the counterfeits, can foster brand affinity among the lower-income buyers, who can’t afford the brand-name items now (and hence, no actual loss in market share), but potentially would later upgrade and purchase the brand-name items (and hence, eventually beneficial to market share).

““like counterfeit pharmaceuticals. People die from that.””

Apples and oranges. This discussion originates from fake Apple stores and we are only talking about counterfeit consumer products, such as iPad or iPhone. Fake Gucci’s and Rolexes can’t be fatal, especially for those who knowingly buy them as counterfeits. :-)

““And it’s pretty lame to always point to somebody else’s past wrongs in trying to justify one’s own faults.””

You mean as in the US government, pointing to the terrorists as a justification for legalizing torture with the Military Commissions Act in 2006 (amended in 2009)? That is way beyond merely “lame”. :-)

emeraldkity4 · July 23, 2011, 6:53pm

"

This was not the case for customers purchasing from " the Apple Store".

China raises the bar.

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