Choosing the rigor level of H.S. courses - Is a mix of advanced & on-level OK for top schools??

College Majors Musical Theater Majors
1

<p>As this first semester of school ends, I’m desperately seeking advice regarding class rigor and grades, especially from those of you whose kids have made it into top tier schools.</p>

<p>My daughter is heavily involved in her high school’s theatre program; plus their Improv Troupe; is on the board of their Thespian Troupe; and is involved in their Aerial Gymnastics program. On top of that she is taking ALL advanced, honors and AP classes. </p>

<p>As the semester (of her 10th grade year) progressed, we saw her grades plummet and the stress level rise!! </p>

<p>Now we are contemplating dropping to some on-level courses for next semester and here on out. Since she plans to study MT, she will never need Honors Chemistry or AP Calc. She especially wants to drop from Advance Honors Geometry to on level math next year. But will not taking those classes hurt her chances to get into the good schools?</p>

<p>I have been told that the top tier schools will not even consider you if you do not have a rigorous class schedule.
But does that mean that you cannot take any on-level classes?
Or can you mix on level with advanced classes? </p>

<p>My thought is that if you have a mix of hard and on-level and can get good grades, it’s better than taking all hard classes and getting Cs. ???</p>

<p>Would a hard school overlook the grades for an exceptionally talented student? </p>

<p>Would love your advice, especially those with first hand knowledge.</p>

2

<p>

</p>

<p>Schools look at what the student took, in addition to the grades received. As well, they view the curriculum chosen within the context of what that particular high school offers in terms of courses/levels. Sure, a student can take some advanced classes and some on-level classes. It doesn’t have to be all of one or none. Sometimes, a student is stronger in certain subjects than others!</p>

<p>I don’t agree with the statement that a MT student never needs Chemistry or Calculus. To me, that is irrelevant as to whether their intended major involves math or science (or whatever). Colleges are looking at how the student has challenged themselves and the rigor of their college prep curriculum (for example, my kid got a BFA in MT and while she never took science or math in college, she had a strong college prep curriculum in HS that included AP Calculus and Honor Chemistry).</p>

<p>In any case, to answer whether it’s better to take a mix of level classes and get good grades or take the hardest classes and obtain all C’s…the answer is it is better to take a mix and get good grades than all C’s. But by the same token, it is not necessarily better to take easier classes and get all A’s instead of more advanced classes and getting B’s. I think the B’s in more rigorous classes might trump As in the gut classes. Of course, the ideal situation is to take rigorous classes and get A’s. :slight_smile: The bottom line, I believe, is for a student to take the most challenging courses they can HANDLE (basically, at least achieve a B in). Rigor matters when it comes to academically selective college admissions, but the rigor should not be well beyond the level of what the student can handle and get decent grades (not necessarily all A’s). </p>

<p>It sounds like your student may be getting C’s at her current level of classes and so she should talk with her guidance counselor in putting together a demanding curriculum for next year, but one she can handle and achieve better grades, but not so easy that she is not challenged and where they are easy A’s. She may also want to work on time management, which is important not only in HS, but will be in a BFA program, particularly in a more academically selective university. So, if she is aiming for that, she needs to prove she can handle such things on the high school level. Again, it is not an either/or situation. Perhaps in some subjects, she can handle the top level class and in some other subjects she needs to go down one step (not necessarily the bottom rung) in level. </p>

3

<p>Thanks! Your reply was great help. And what I meant was I don’t believe they need ADVANCED Chemistry or ADVANCED Calc (as opposed to on level). </p>

4

<p>What do you mean by top tier? Yale and Northwestern? What sort of experience does your child want? </p>

<p>If an intense academic grind is not working in high school then shooting for a college in that same vein doesn’t make much sense. In fact, it puts the kid in a very tough position freshman year that results in many extremely high functioning academically-succesful high school students bouncing right back to the nest after a semester or three of college. </p>

<p>Encourage your child to make her own plan in this regard in consultation with you instead of you driving those decisions for her. Only by making her own course choices will she truly own them. There is no particular curricular golden ticket. There is an opportunity here (given that she’s only halfway through her sophomore year) for you to support her in re-framing high school as a truly educational experience that has the focus she chooses. Looking toward the next step must not overwhelm the current endeavor. </p>

<p>You and your child will make the choices that work for you. In our family, AP courses were taken sparingly and only in those curricular areas where the children had strong interest. Some of the AP classes sacrifice deep understanding for test prep because the curriculum is so rigidly defined by the expectations of the College Board. AP Global History is a great example of the failure of the AP concept. The idea that it is possible to really study the history of the world from its inception to the present date with any depth within the confines of a single academic year is just absurd. It’s a two year course shoehorned into a single year and a surefire way to extinguish most kids’ interest in history.</p>

<p>AP Language, AP Lit, AP Music Theory, and AP Vergil are all courses that my children were enthusiastic about. As a result, they did well. AP Math or Science would have been disastrous. </p>

5

<p>I would say for NYU and Michigan, a rigorous course load, if done well, will be an advantage. If you receive average or poor grades it will not. Syracuse and Penn State also require good grades - but not necessarily all AP classes. Northwestern would also require strong grades and advanced courses as does Elon.</p>

<p>Carnegie Mellon and CCM will look past academics if they are interested in having you in their program. </p>

<p>Boston Consevatory, Ithaca, Baldwin Wallace, Otterbein. OCU, Texas State and many others are not as academically difficult to get in, so a rigorous course load is not necessary. But at these schools if you do have a strong academic record you may qualify for significant academic merit $.</p>

6

<p>Right, the majority of schools that offer a BFA in MT are not super selective academically to get into, though strong academics help with merit aid. But if one is entertaining the idea of applying to some programs in more academically selective universities, it is best to take the most demanding course load one can handle (which may not be the most demanding offered) and receive strong grades and all the other elements that make up a strong candidacy. And there are some schools that have a bifurcated process whereby the student is admitted separately to the university and to the program (Elon is an example). </p>

7

<p>

Exactly why neither of my two kids’ high schools offered AP classes in any subject. Not at all knocking well taught AP classes and I have a friend that I respect a lot who teaches one and I know her daughter entered college extremely well prepared for an academically rigorous program, plus is killing her studio classes too I’m sure due both to talent and intellect. But some schools (both of my kids’ schools as I mentioned) just don’t go there. I’m not entirely convinced that all classes that are constrained by that test, are equal. Depends on the teacher. </p>

8

<p>The trouble is if your HS doesn’t offer AP classes then the expectation to take them isn’t there, but if your HS does offer AP courses you are expected to show a rigor in your coursework. If my daughter had not taken AP courses she would not have gotten into a couple of the schools that require that she show she was pushing herself. It’s a double edged sword…</p>

9

<p>halflokum, my kids had a similar experience. Back when they attended our HS, I think only one or two courses were labeled AP…Calculus was it. Instead, the most rigorous courses were labeled Honors. And these were rigorous. And the Honors English/History classes in 11th and 12th were actually interdisciplinary. They utilized primary sources and required many papers. They didn’t teach to tests. Since my kids graduated, the school has added more AP designated classes. I’m glad my kids had the classes they had because I think this was better prep for college…way more writing and not so test centric! </p>

10

<p>@vocal1046‌ - this is not really on the MT topic, but I wanted to address a couple of your comments on AP World History (not global history, no such course exists, nor does AP Vergil, did you mean AP Latin?) which I have taught for 5 years. It is one of (if not the) newest AP courses, and has a new technique, focusing on what the college board likes to call “big picture” history. All of human history is covered, but students aren’t learning names/dates/places. Instead; we talk about cultures and civilizations in larger terms, and the roles they have played during various eras. It’s my favorite of the three AP classes I teach (I also do APUSH and AP Euro). I could go on for paragraphs about what makes it a better learning tool than many other AP classes (the others I teach are being redesigned by the college board to make their structure more like world), but I will restrain myself. Suffice it to say that rather than killing student’s interest in history, it is the most popular AP elective at my school.</p>

<p>This is just my personal opinion, but I could imagine that selective college looking at a theater major might like to see Advanced courses in English, history, music theory etc- as those are things that relate to the major, but wouldn’t necessarily worry as much about ap science/math. Another thought is that colleges look at the courses your school offers, and if a student has not taken advantage of opportunities a selective school might not like it. After all, they want the students they accept to be able to succeed there</p>

11

<p>I don’t think the college board wants people to teach to the test- I think schools/teachers do it b/c we are j
“Judged” by our scores. I teach AP Euro to freshman- and we start out with a LONG speech about how having an expectation that you will get college credit in 9th grade is a long long shot. But the only way to learn is by doing. We tried calling it honors for a few years, but found that kids/parents struggled with understanding the purpose of learning AP skills. My freshman take the class, and we work on process- especially writing for history, as well as content, and the test is part of the journey, but not the goal. Across all curriculum, the 1st AP class a student takes in any subject they have a 50/50 shot of scoring. But… On a second test in that subject area it goes up to nearly 70%, and odds just continue to go up. My school embraces starting strong students young, some score early, some don’t, but by the time they graduate they have had lots of opportunities to experience challenging classes, and get credits</p>

12

<p>I have a kid that is a freshman in college and he took AP Vergil in 10th grade. It was renamed by the College Board a couple of years ago, but it is entirely possibly that a kid auditioning this year may have taken AP Vergil.</p>

13

<p>Thank you- I stand corrected. As my school does not offer Latin as a language option, (which I regret, it is so cool) I have not paid careful attention to college board testing in that language</p>

14

<p>Ah, yes, at the kid’s school (and I think all of NY) they call it Global, which I believe is what the Regents exam is called, but of course it’s the history of the world from the dawn of time to the present. I’m sure there are some teachers who manage to do that in a year with some meaning and depth. I’d lay serious money that they are in the minority. It’s the AP the kid’s HS requires in 10th grade, which is unfortunate since so many kids are turned off that APUSH has a much lower census. </p>

<p>Big sib went to a renowned school that refuses to label any classes AP to avoid the College Board prescriptions about curriculum yet all the classes prepare students well enough that when they take AP exams on their own, their scores are 5s or 4s. Best of both worlds.</p>

<p>Latin is a great language option and dovetails well for singing liturgical music. The kid whose HS offered it got lucky. The other only had Latin in middle school and had to switch to Italian for HS, which was also useful for singing arias and art songs. (Just to bring things back around to MT.)</p>

<p>I stand by my assertion that students taking AP level classes that do not particularly interest them is a poor use of their time and energies. </p>

15

<p>Our kids’ high school had a letter that was sent to colleges stating that a student had taken the most rigorous course load available. At their particular school, I think this involved completing a specialized BioTech curriculum, in addition to many AP and Honors courses. As I recall, only kids who had excelled at that curriculum and who were in the top 5% of their class were admitted to top-20 schools the kids’ years (for MT that would include Northwestern and Yale). This was a mid-tier public school, though, and I’m sure there are many high schools where this would not apply.</p>

<p>For those considering top-20 schools, it might be worth asking your councillor which courses are required for them to certify that you took the most rigorous courses offered.</p>

<p>For what it’s worth, our kids loved all of their AP courses.</p>

<p>As has been said, BFA MT programs don’t have the same academic standards as top-20 universities, though they are obviously artisticly selective.</p>

16

<p>** artistically ** ugh. I wish cc left more time for editing on behalf of the writing-challenged like me.</p>

<p>In short, the answer to the OP depends on how you define “top tier”.</p>

17

<p>I have to agree with several posters on this thread, and also disagree. Definitely need to decide if you are talking “top tier” academically or artistically - in few very select cases, both. Although some students can change their feathers significantly between 10th and 12th grade (11th for the purpose of college admissions), if a student is struggling to hit all the “top” academic marks in 10th grade, but is super-engaged in “top” music/art/dance/gymnastics/acting activities, then I think the student is already showing where her “heart” lies. If she changes her mind and wants to become a doctor/lawyer/indian chief at some point in the future, then so be it - she can change course at that time. (S’s 30-y-o classically-trained, CCM MFA voice teacher is off to med school this year.)</p>

<p>My currently college freshman MT S went to a very academically rigorous HS grades 7 - 10. He took all the honors/APs he could fit in his schedule (incl. US Hist and Latin/Vergil; “honors” science and pre-calc. but not AP). In order to do that, he had to exclude choir, orchestra, drama, etc. from his 10th grade year (dance/acting/voice ALL took place outside of school day). Over the course of that year, H and I watched him expiring before our eyes. He could barely get out of bed in the morning. He made it through that year with good grades, did well on USH and Vergil AP exams, but the cost was huge. He was miserable for 9 months.</p>

<p>11th and 12th grade, he transferred to less-academically-rigorous PA HS. He refused to take any AP science, 1. b/c he hates it, and 2. b/c the offered times would negate some of the choir/music theory/piano classes he wanted, 3. those classes did not have the best records for “passing the test”. He took AP Calc as a junior. Got the only “A” in the class and was the only one to “pass” the AP exam (barely - and then only of value to a “state” college. He did make it through pre-screen process at UM and CMU, even though he was not in top 10% of class). He did take AP English in 11/12th grades, but only because he HAD to have English to graduate, and the “regular” English classes at this school would have been something less than a challenge. I don’t mention this to brag, but b/c at some schools, the AP classes are not all they are cracked up to be - either due to teaching, or b/c of district/school pressures to accept students in APs who do not belong there. Or maybe the student is only there b/c that’s what they’re “supposed to do”. In these cases, a student may spend 9 months in a class - because “I need the most rigorous classes in my school”, or to get “college credit” - but if the “outcome” is a low score on the exam, that “A” in AP buys you a few points on <em>weighted</em> GPA and class rank, but little else. Is it worth it for a kid whose heart lies elsewhere? Wouldn’t that time/effort be better spent adding to the 10,000 hours of practice you need to become a “master” at what you love?</p>

<p>Under normal circumstances, I am all for “pushing” for the highest academic rigor possible - for ANY student (and did so for all three of my college-age Ss. In hindsight, I would make a few VERY different choices). And there are many MT kids who thrive on academic challenge. But some of our kids “choose” their challenges elsewhere. Shouldn’t we be teaching them to trust where their avocation is taking them, rather than forcing them to “write with the correct hand”? Or adding “do-this-just-in-case-you-need-a-fallback-or-change-your-mind” messages on top of the stress and uncertainty they may already feel? I would never advocate ignorance for anyone, and believe that yes, all minds should be stretched, in as many ways as possible, but by forcing “top” academic expectations onto kids who send clear signals in other directions, we are already telling them that their choice is “wrong”, or of lower value. And they will get THAT message loud and clear for the rest of their lives.</p>

18

<p>

@bisouu,that expectation doesn’t magically vanish from schools that do not offer AP classes. You still have to pick a rigorous path which would include honors classes if offered, 4 years of math even if not a graduation requirement, chemistry and physics over other science classes that would fulfill the science distribution that are considered less rigorous etc. And… if you still want to take AP tests, you likely have to do some prep on your own because you were not taught to the test or at a minimum, test prep is not something included on your school day and often nor are the tests offered at the school you attend.</p>

19

<p>

I completely agree with @mom4bwayboy’s point. Our kids were always in total control of choosing their own curriculum in high school, and of creating their own college lists. I think D watched too much Gilmore Girls as a child and aspired to Rory’s academic experiences. ;)</p>

<p>That said, I think recent brain research suggests that high school age kids’ brains aren’t well suited to anticipating consequences so if, like us, you have a student who aspires to any academically-selective schools they may need some early help (councellors can be great for this) plotting a course to get them there.</p>

20

<p>IMHO - colleges like to see AP classes for the same reason they like ACT/SAT - they can compare apples to apples. In order for a school to call itself AP, their course has to be approved and certified (which mostly consists of submitting syllabus and materials) and of course, (*almost) all AP students have taken the same test - so if a kid got a “4” schools have an understanding of what that means. Some schools make the deliberate choice not to certify, and still allow kids to take AP test at end of year - but how that works for colleges making a determination of rigor.</p>

<p>In the end, and within the boundaries of state requirements, I think kids should take classes that challenge them, but don’t overwhelm them. But I am a teacher, so I am looking at things from a different point of view</p>