Christian Colleges, US Service Acads & More

<p>Some level setting. I am the father of five children and by profession a SVP of Human Resources. I have two children in college today – Wheaton College in Illinois and the U.S. Air Force Academy. We are of an evangelical Christian faith and politically conservative.</p>

<p>I have traveled in my career to dozens to more than 100 Colleges and Universities and even with my own children more than ten formal visits as a parent. I utilize US News, Forbes, Princeton Review, and more. I have come to be biased by faculty to student Ratios, freshmen retention, and graduation rates. I am equally biased against IVY League undergraduate schools based on their liberal out of touch with reality views, anti-Christian positioning, and more than anything else I do not see an economic value proposition for most families. I do see great value at the graduate level for “name” school education in many disciplines.</p>

<p>I have also come to realize that college choices have the most to do with each individual student – their wants, needs, areas of interests and academic abilities. An insight is that family income below $100K leads to lots of need based scholarship opportunity, but upper middle incomes of above $100K to $300K really find college expensive. Academic versus need based scholarships are more limited and the cost of college is mind bending expensive. However, through various ways of financing an education more often than not a private school can be less expensive than many state schools that really only help the lowest income levels with aid. Christian colleges can be an excellent choice for many of us.</p>

<p>Sadly, when it comes to Christian Colleges many are more like Church Camp than a disciplined quality education that can compete with secular school options. Also many Christian Colleges are very loosely aligned with Christian faith, which has some market appeal but misses the point of living your life for Christ in all that you do with a Biblical foundation.</p>

<p>Here are the Christian Colleges I can recommend:</p>

<p>Baylor, Bethel, Calvin, Cedarville, Grove City, Olivet Nazarene, Taylor, Westmont, and Wheaton. (Not exhaustive as there are schools like Northwestern College in Iowa I do not know as much about but I speculate would grow my list.)</p>

<p>Other Non-Christian colleges I have recent insight into are:</p>

<p>Hillsdale, Northwestern University, University of Wisconsin in Madison, Texas A & M, Truman State, University of Northern Iowa, Vanderbilt, Pepperdine, and Wake Forest. Plus West Point (Army); Annapolis (Navy); and the U.S. Air Force Academy.</p>

<p>Princeton Review provides a selectivity profile ranking from 60 to 99, with higher scores equaling a higher the academic profile with close correlation to the degree of difficulty for admission. </p>

<p>In order: Vanderbilt 99; Air Force 98; West Point 97; Northwestern 97; Navy 95; Wheaton 94; Pepperdine 94; Wake Forest 94; Grove City 93; U of W – Madison 93; Hillsdale 92; Truman State 91; Westmont 89; Cedarville 88; Taylor 86; Baylor 83; Texas A & M 83; Olivet 82; Bethel 82; and U of No. Iowa 75.</p>

<p>As you can see the Christian Colleges hold their own with secular schools in attracting a quality student with high academic profiles. Utilizing the US News ranking the only two Christian Schools with National ranking in their top 100 are Baylor University and Wheaton College.</p>

<p>Baylor University – Waco, TX</p>

<p>14,000 students; 12,000 Undergrad; Division 1 Athletics; 100 plus majors; Beautiful Campus; and excellent reputation for employment and graduate school. Outstanding academic as well as need based financial aid. (34,000 applicants for 3,800 spots)</p>

<p>We came to Baylor due to their top 10 ranking in undergraduate engineering and the number one ranked Air Force ROTC unit in the country. We found the faculty to be Biblically based, pragmatic, and well educated. Much criticism comes to Baylor on their varied views of evolution and the fact that their student body does not have to be Christian to attend. Many students are not Christian but ‘most’ are and the Faculty is required to be believers, with exceptions for guest lecturers. The only negative is the distance to Waco which is 100 miles south of Dallas. Whether I am New York on business or anywhere else in the planet when the name Baylor University comes up I hear the same phrase – “Baylor, that is a great school!” </p>

<p>Wheaton College in Illinois</p>

<p>3,000 students; 2,400 Undergrad; Division 3 Athletics; Outstanding Facilities; Outstanding Faculty; Number 39 out of all colleges in SAT scores; Top 10 in nation for percentage of students that go on to graduate school; Top 25 in nation for students who graduate in four years. (2,600 applicants for 580 spots, but only 1 out of 4 women are accepted with entering class 50/50 male and female.) Top 25% of students at or above 32 for ACT and 1430 for SAT.</p>

<p>Wheaton academics are not for the faint of heart. While 88% graduate in four years the tone is competitive in the classroom and accepting & nurturing in all other aspects. The students are bright but know how to have fun. 14 hours of required Bible. More of a reformed bent within faculty but students come from all denominations. Wheaton has a rich endowment and provides for more than 95% of need based aid but has very limited academic scholarships. </p>

<p>Cedarville University – Ohio</p>

<p>3,200 students; 3,000 undergrad; Division 2 Athletics; 60 plus majors; One of the Best College Presidents in Nation (my opinion); Biblically sound and extremely Market Focused with high placement of graduates.</p>

<p>Cedarville has it all from business, to nursing, to engineering. Great facilities; nurturing environment, and a great economic value proposition. Students work hard but their profile represents that while “most” of their students are very bright, the bottom 25% may be more challenged to finish college. Which is kind of the point as the whole school is fulltime dedicated to student success. This school is extremely student focused while uncompromising on the work required to succeed. While the facilities are exceptional the setting is often referred to as being in the middle of a corn field with the largest city close to them being Dayton, 25 miles away. The student satisfaction has been measured against more than 300 comparably sized schools, Christian and secular, to be the absolute number one. The school is an often overlooked gem.</p>

<p>Calvin College – Michigan</p>

<p>4,000 students – most undergrad; Division 3 Athletics; “Best” facilities! Passionate faculty!</p>

<p>Calvin is worth checking into as I found them to be disciplined & organized, welcoming; with evidence of academic success and great job and graduate school placement.
They were generous with multiple scholarships from academics to recognition for community/church involvement. Their core curriculum was the best I have seen at any college for a liberal arts foundation with real world application. Their campus and facilities are a big “wow”! Their faculty was amazingly student focused and I saw true Christian insight and depth.</p>

<p>My caution is their “reformed” identity is very denominational but they spend great efforts to say it doesn’t matter what your spiritual focus is as all “Christians” are welcome – Huh? Also without a doubt their faculty is more politically liberal than most found on Christian campuses. A great deal of emphasis is on serving the world for Christ, which is admirable but they are Bible light in their practices. Still I could not give up on this school because I saw so much wonderful and solid opportunity for students on so many levels. And as an added plus I know so many of their alumni who are spiritually grounded, passionate for the Lord, and are extremely successful in the world economy. (They love Calvin!)</p>

<p>Grove City College - Pennsylvania</p>

<p>2,600 undergrad students; Campus looks and feels like Princeton (a good thing!)</p>

<p>I will start with my negative. I found Grove to be more politically conservative than Christian in their applications and practices. But “wow” what a school! The cost is half most Christian Colleges and attracts some of the brightest students only slightly behind Wheaton in profile. The students are active and engaged in the world and in learning. The school has an intense core curriculum and prides itself in not providing grade inflation. Their job placement process starts with their freshman in helping them see their strengths and match them with their interests with great results. They have a wide degree of majors including engineering and keep their student boy/girl ratio at 50/50. Because of the low financial cost and having a great school they are hard to gain acceptance. If you have the brains to get in, it is hard to top this school for having all you need to prepare for careers and/or graduate studies.</p>

<p>Westmont College – California</p>

<p>1,350 undergrad students; Campus in Santa Barbara Mountains overlooking the Pacific Ocean</p>

<p>For a small school they have their act together. The price tag, while scary is offset with generous academic as well as need based scholarships. Started as a Wheaton clone but now has its own identity. Campus was caught in a fire and has been rebuilt with wonderful facilities. Known for great faculty and students from every corner of the earth. Psychology is one of their strengths and their students overall are very competitive in the marketplace upon graduation. </p>

<p>Olivet Nazarene – Illinois</p>

<p>This is the only college I can recommend without having personally been on the campus. My daughter went there with her church group and was impressed with their caring and comprehensive academic choices. They offered her huge academic scholarships that would have brought our total outlay to less than $12,000 per year all in. (Tempting)</p>

<p>I researched the school and know several of their alumni. The school is comprehensive, student focused, Christ honoring, and well financed that shows in their campus and programs. The academic profile of the students is the lowest of schools I would recommend but higher than any state school in Wisconsin except their flag ship in Madison. I got the sense I would trust them to with my child’s education and they have lots of majors to choose from. Their alumni are passionate about this school.</p>

<p>Taylor University - Indiana</p>

<p>2,800 undergrads & Amazing Faculty</p>

<p>The negatives are the campus is in the middle of nowhere and more than any school I would recommend it had a flavor of running more like a Church Camp than a University. However, the academic profile is high, the academics are exceptional and US News has consistently ranked Taylor as the number one school in the Midwest.</p>

<p>We met and saw the most comprehensive writing program that has students published and paid starting in their freshman year. By the time they graduate some had more than 100 published articles and one student sold a book for movie rights in the six figure neighborhood. The whole Taylor experience is connected to the world economy and making a difference in the world for Christ. Their chapel services are spectacular bringing in speakers from around the globe and a time of worship. Taylor may be the “most” Christ focused of any campus we visited without a whiff of legalism. The campus while well equipped is not pretty with buildings but the mission, the comprehensive educational opportunities, and the passionate student body makes this a great choice to consider.</p>

<p>Bethel University – Minnesota</p>

<p>3,600 undergrads, 1,800 adult education; and 1,200 graduate and seminary students</p>

<p>Every Bethel student I know whether current or alumni love this school. They have extensive majors, good facilities, and attract a solid academic profile student body. They are Biblically centered but more liberal than all but Calvin in my summary. While they participate in ROTC through neighboring schools it is clear they are biased towards an anti-war sentiment and less patriotic flavor than most Christian schools. Their legacy however is very conservative and I sense they are experiencing more of a changing of the guard with their new president. </p>

<p>The campus came across as a fun place to study with lots of majors to choose from and students that are serious about life, athletic, artistic, and engaged. They put great emphasis on their students studying overseas. And my oldest was offered great academic scholarship support.</p>

<p>Comments on other Non-Christine Schools:</p>

<p>University of Wisconsin – Madison</p>

<p>30,600 undergrads; 12,000 grad; The Flag Ship of Wisconsin</p>

<p>We live in suburban Milwaukee and my children attend (past and present) a large public high school with a graduating class of 560. The HS is known for having the second highest ACT scores for public schools in the state and more than 90% of their graduates go to college. Out the 560 graduates more than 200 apply to Madison and this last year only 27 were accepted. There is really no close second for state schools in Wisconsin. My business actively recruits Actuarial students from Madison and their graduates tend to be viewed as bright and motivated. People in Wisconsin talk of Madison like people on the east coast talk about Harvard, Princeton and Yale but what are the facts?</p>

<p>Less than 50% of UW Madison students graduate in four years. A full 30% don’t make it from their freshman to sophomore year. Princeton Review lists them favorably for their library, school newspaper, and undergrad entrepreneurial business program but also ranks them high in top ten for being LGBT friendly, and having lots of beer and hard liquor. This year they failed to make the top 10 for Party Schools coming in at number 14. I meet many a refined adult who are alumni of Madison and more often than not, they have a drinking story or two highlighting their college career. Abortions are state funded and available on campus; “the only” infant stem cell research funded by government dollars is at Madison, and if you go to one of their home football games a tradition is to chant loud and clear obscenities including the “F” word back and forth with great pride. Liberal – yes! Yet they are known for research innovation, medical discovery, business best practices, and political engagements (having a real voice) that help shape America. While politically to the left, we know some very conservative and Christian people that go to and attend UW Madison with pride.</p>

<p>My opinion it takes a very special student to survive and thrive in their environment. It would be easy to get lost, easy to fail, and easy to walk away from Christian values. The faculty to student ratio is 17 to 1 and will increase to 20 to 1 due to budget cuts. Wheaton is at 10 to 1 and Vanderbilt is at 7 to 1. No school I am commenting on has a higher ratio. Though in the eye of the beholder whether good or bad only about 15 to 20% of UW Madison graduates ever get a masters degree compared to over 70% of Wheaton grads. It is hard to see the magic that holds Madison in such high regard. And, while their sports are awesome in last years Rose Bowl I supported TCU(the winner) which was viewed a being from the lowly Mountain West Conference and not worthy of the Big 10. Sadly, that same attitude is view that holds Madison in such high regard academically with blinders to the facts of a quality education.</p>

<p>Vanderbilt University – Tennessee
7,000 undergrad; 5,000 grad; One of the most selective schools in America AND
Wake Forest University – North Carolina
4,600 undergrad; 2,000 grad</p>

<p>If you are looking for Ivy League status without some of the hard left politics issues both schools are premier academic powerhouses. Their students are extraordinarily bright, balanced, and engaged in the world. Neither school is conservative per se nor Christian but you can be both and be welcome and fully embraced in the classroom and not be painted as being part of the lunatic fringe. </p>

<p>Both schools are known as a rich kid’s schools but their endowments are humongous allowing exceptional need based and academic scholarships. Too heavy on the sorority and fraternity life in my opinion but both schools are worth consideration. Comparing with Madison their Faculty/Student ratios are under 10, not 20. More than 90% graduate in four years and more than 90% move from the freshman to sophomore years. (Vs. 50% and 70% at UW) Vanderbilt is more elite, but both are very similar and quite spectacular at what they do.</p>

<p>Pepperdine University – California</p>

<p>This school is in the most beautiful setting overlooking the Pacific Ocean in Malibu, CA. It is well funded and disciplined in their approach to education. While conservative I do not consider them to be a Christian school as there is little Bible and little spiritual focus. The name of this school is big and while most of America has heard of it few really understands what is unique about it. If you approach it as a well run school and are willing to pay a big price tag to go to school in paradise this is a valid option. </p>

<p>Truman State University – Missouri
University of Northern Iowa
Texas A & M</p>

<p>These schools have little in common other than they are well run, have great student options, and are gems in their own way. Truman is a state school with high academics and a low price tag for even out of state students. U of No Iowa is probably the best school I could find with almost everything you could place on a campus with good student outcomes but for students with a lower academic profile. Texas A & M makes you proud to be an American. Heavy into ROTC, all branches and really good academics and also surprisingly affordable for even out of state students.</p>

<p>Northwestern University – Illinois</p>

<p>Academically this school is world renowned but very liberal and very much aligned with most Ivy League schools for bad, not the good. We could not shake this school as we have family ties so we visited the campus twice. On our first visit the school newspaper ran a front page article on a presentation given on campus advocating that if women learns to better self please themselves sexually their could be free from the bonds and burdens of being weighed down by a significant other or worse yet a spouse. Upon our second visit the campus was in controversy over a psychology professor that hired a couple to demonstrate live deviant sex practices in the classroom. However, the school has a history of their graduates going on to great things in society. It is tough to gain admission and most parents see their kid’s attendance as a seal of success. I see Northwestern being a better option if at all for graduate school as many undergrad classes have teacher assistants and grad students teaching. Their esteemed faculty is often on the road giving talks and not in the classroom.</p>

<p>Hillsdale College – Michigan
1,300 undergraduates</p>

<p>Hillsdale is not a Christian College though Christianity is well accepted and even embraced. They are more aligned with fighting for religious freedom for all types of beliefs but are predominately protestant and catholic. Hillsdale is very conservative politically and teach a classical liberal arts model. They are well disciplined and like Grove City College do not accept any government funding. They have managed to accumulate one of the largest endowments of any college in America their size and as a result attract a top quality student and faculty. They teach and preach free market economics which is sorely needed on the college campus in this day and age.</p>

<p>When we visited they had an engaging student panel of five students that talked of the joys and challenges of a Hillsdale education. Also like Grove City, they too pride themselves on no grade inflation. At the end of the presentation the students being seniors were asked where they were heading in the next year – two were off to Harvard Law School. (HLS shows their feeder schools and I recently looked against all the schools that I have referenced – Hillsdale had 3; Wheaton 2; Grove City, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt each had 1.) Hillsdale, like Wheaton, expects more than 2/3’s of their students to go on to graduate school in less than 10 years after graduation.</p>

<p>Hillsdale in many respects is a late bloomer as their college rankings over the last 5 or 6 years have soared. They are very competitive to get into and their graduates do well in all walks of life. And their financial aid in all respects is excellent.</p>

<p>U.S. Air Force Academy – Colorado Springs, CO
U.S. Naval Academy – Annapolis, MD
U.S. Military Academy – West Point, NY</p>

<p>Unlike other universities if you are accepted you pretty much go. Each has about 4,200 students with high academic profiles, good athletic abilities, and resume of community involvement second to none. The Cadets and Midshipmen are paid to go to school but each has a minimum of 5 years post graduation service obligation. The academics are very technical in nature with science and engineering being dominant and unavoidable even if you ultimately major in English. They are evaluated on everything – academics 60% weight; military proficiency 30%; and athletic performance 10%. They pretty much go to school year around but they also get to see the world as they study. While the classroom experience would rival an MIT or the California Institute of Technology their experiences overall do not look and feel little like any other school.</p>

<p>Our oldest is in his third year at the Air Force Academy and all we can say is wow! He has traveled the US extensively, been to Japan, and been involved with projects for NASA. And, I am biased that it should be on every Americans “bucket list” to see a service academy football game when they play each other. Jet fly over’s, parachuting on the field, Cadets and Midshipmen marching onto the field in formation at the beginning and their schools hymns at the end. In the middle you will witness the most exciting football known to man, with enthusiasm second to none unique in tone and delivery.</p>

<p>There is no free ride in their journey. They earn their education and commission through hard work. They come to serve their country. Yes, many come to fly jets but many of them end up dying for ‘our’ Country too. Make no mistake, the service academy route is a road that only makes sense for a few – some of the finest young men and women I have ever come to know.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Also many Christian Colleges are very loosely aligned with Christian faith, which has some market appeal but misses the point of living your life for Christ in all that you do with a Biblical foundation.

[/quote]

Exactly; many Christian schools are run by rich men in "megachurches" training a bunch of ill-informed business wanna-bes. They like to ignore the time Jesus said that rich men can't go to heaven. Or to help the poor. So they just plod along, in their hate (love your neighbor) and greed (the love of money is the root of all evil), teaching that the world was made on Sunday, October 23rd, 4004 BC. The kind of schools that given Christian universities a bad name.</p>

<p>Anyone who is concerned about the academic quality of a school should check out this site.
Compare</a> Schools - What Will They Learn?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Utilizing the US News ranking the only two Christian Schools with National ranking in their top 100 are Baylor University and Wheaton College

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The following schools have a Roman Catholic or other Christian religious affiliation:</p>

<p>Notre Dame University (USNWR #19 National University, Roman Catholic)
Georgetown University (USNWR #21, National University, Roman Catholic)
Boston College (USNWR #31 National University, Roman Catholic)
Fordham University (USNWR #56 National University, Roman Catholic)
Brigham Young University (USNWR #75 National University, LDS)
Marquette University (USNWR #75 National University, Roman Catholic)
Baylor University (USNWR #79 National University, Baptist)
St. Louis University (USNWR #86 National University, Roman Catholic)
University of Dayton (USNWR #99 National University, Roman Catholic)</p>

<p>Holy Cross (USNWR #32 National Liberal Arts College, Roman Catholic)
Wheaton College (USNWR #55 National Liberal Arts College, Christian nondenominational)
Thomas Aquinas College (USNWR #71 National Liberal Arts College, Roman Catholic)
Earlham College (USNWR #75 National Liberal Arts College, Quaker)</p>

<p>I sincerely hope this won't devolve into one of those "Catholics aren't real Christians" threads, in spite of all history, definitions, and religious fact running to the truth of the matter (not only that Catholics are Christians, but all other modern day Christian churches broke away from the Catholic church, or another one that did).</p>

<p>Sorry Eddie, but as the OP's posts affirm, and this has nothing to do with the theological discussion that would be most fascinating to have with you man-o-mano, when it comes to higher ed and generally accepted labeling, categorizing ... "catholic" does not equal "Christian." (Yea, we know ND is a fine school. Just not in this category, despite your desire to reclassify. ;-)They simply are different categories. Nothing personal, just the way life is on this one. </p>

<p>Now back to the Op's excellent review. Thanks for sharing. We'd have some significant quibbling, but on the whole, right on the money. Bettern The Princeton Review, too, especially relative to this specific forum on colleges that would most often be deemed as "Christian." Musta had a long lonely night in a motel somewhere in the middle of Nebraska. In any case, terrific, candid insights that should be of benefit to anyones looking for meat on the bone about Christian colleges. Your upclose review on Baylor was particularly encouraging. As noted, on a few others, the mark is missed or at least camouflaged, but that's for another day. The one "sleeper" you really nailed ... Hillsdale. Great job!</p>

<p>And thank your student @ USAFA. Despite what many think, that is anything but a"free" education.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Sorry Eddie, but as the OP's posts affirm, and this has nothing to do with the theological discussion that would be most fascinating to have with you man-o-mano, when it comes to higher ed and generally accepted labeling, categorizing ... "catholic" does not equal "Christian." (Yea, we know ND is a fine school. Just not in this category, despite your desire to reclassify. ;-)They simply are different categories. Nothing personal, just the way life is on this one.

[/quote]

Chris·tian</p>

<p>* /ˈkrisCHən/ </p>

<p>adjective </p>

<pre><code>Of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings
- the Christian Church

Having or showing qualities associated with Christians, esp. those of decency, kindness, and fairness
</code></pre>

<p>noun 
Christians, plural</p>

<pre><code>A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings*
</code></pre>

<p>In the sense of "Christian" schools, the definition would be "Of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings." How do Catholic schools not apply?</p>

<p>You may need to do some homework on this one, I'm afraid. You just don't get it, it seems. Go get 'em St. Eddie! The Pope's gotta love ya, dude. Ignorance can bring bliss. ;)</p>

<p>So do I also have the power to randomly declare huge swaths of the Christian religion not Christian? Okay, Protestant schools, you are now... I don't know... Taoist!</p>

<p>Because, of course, no true Scotsman would go to a Catholic school. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Categorically speaking, there are no Protestant schools. Just Christian and as you note so well, catholic. </p>

<p>I think thou doest protest too much! :p</p>

<p>
[quote]
Categorically speaking, there are no Protestant schools. I think thou doest protest too much!

[/quote]

Wheaton is an evangelical protestant school, no?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Sorry Eddie, but as the OP's posts affirm, and this has nothing to do with the theological discussion that would be most fascinating to have with you man-o-mano, when it comes to higher ed and generally accepted labeling, categorizing ... "catholic" does not equal "Christian."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>DolorousEdd raises a perfectly legitimate point: Fundamentalists and Evangelicals should not get to arrogate to themselves an exclusive right to the label "Christian" without objection from others who have longer-standing (or otherwise justified) claims to the same label. The trouble is, other Christians have given fundamentalist Christians a free pass on this for so long that, by now, labels like "Christian College" have crept into fairly mainstream use (on College Confidential, for instance.) That horse is out of the barn, so to speak. </p>

<p>Of course, it all depends on what kind of list one is trying to compile. You get one list if the objective is to compile a list of academically strong (USNWR top 100) schools that also are relatively conservative, with some sort of Christian religious affiliation. Thomas Aquinas College belongs on such a list (Thomas</a> Aquinas College | Best College | US News). It may even be much closer to the OP's target than the University of Wisconsin ... unless your bias against Catholic schools is stronger than your bias against gummint schools.</p>

<p>You get a far smaller list if the objective is to compile a list of academically strong (USNWR top 100) schools that also are very conservative, with a fundamentalist / evangelical Christian religious affiliation. If you also want to specify a strong service orientation, then you're down to as few as ONE school: Wheaton College. </p>

<p>Now, you may want to relax the "top 100" criterion and the "service" criterion, and emphasize instead a curriculum centered on Christian doctrine from a fundamentalist/evangelical perspective (as opposed to a curriculum centered on the traditional liberal arts and sciences + religion classes tossed in). In that case, the OP's starter-list of 9 "Christian Colleges" may be close to what you want. </p>

<p>I think the curriculum and extracurricular life (not institutional affiliation) is key to separating the so-called "Christian Schools" from other (often academically stronger) schools with Christian religious ties. The so-called "Christian Schools" make a certain interpretation of Biblical doctrine central to the curriculum and campus life. Catholics, Quakers, and Mormons generally do not (for example) overtly apply religious doctrine in shaping the science curriculum.</p>

<p>Eddie raises questions that were long ago answered. Categorically. Now, beyond these allegations, it's pretty much navel-lint removal. </p>

<p>In your defense and defensiveness of catholicism and apparently the many fine institutions that proudly wear that label, you're missing the point. Both catholic and Christian college leaders ... profs, admin, trustees, etc. ... have, despite what you 2 would wish for and proclaim, determined the generally accepted terminology. If it makes you feel better, fine. Let catholic = Christian. </p>

<p>I am dying to call my Chevy a BMW. And even have a leather steering wheel and Beemer coffee cup. But I dare not do so at either the Chevy or BMW dealer. This might be a point of discussion at the next confessional sessional. "Forgive me Padre, for I have referred to our colleges as Christian." :confused: :rolleyes: "Ah, don't worry about it. Do 10 hail Mary's, 20 push-ups, and pretend you're Rudy."</p>

<p>^ I'm not defending Roman Catholics, Quakers, or Mormons. I take issue with the term "Christian College" not because it offends my religious beliefs but because the way it is being used strikes me as illogical, ahistorical, and misleading. This use of the term "Christian" also has a vaguely bullying tone to it (like other terms such as "patriot" or "family values" to imply that you are more patriotic or a better family person than people who disagree with you). So I'd prefer another term (perhaps "Bible College".) </p>

<p>However, I understand that language has a life of its own. Usage is often more a matter of custom than of logic. It does seem to be the case that the term "Christian" has in many circles displaced the term "Protestant". If, in interfaith dialog, both Catholic and Protestant leaders have reached some consensus on this usage, then fine. It's not really my debate. Though I seriously doubt this question has been answered "categorically". Who, pray, would be the authority for that? The Pope? </p>

<p>Anyway ... I'm more interested in the OP's taxonomy of colleges. He seems to recognize that his own strict definition of "Christian School" does not leave him with very many high-quality choices. So he seems to be willing to cast a wider net by relaxing certain criteria. As I said above, I think that some political and social conservatives ought to find Thomas Aquinas College (for example) more congenial than the University of Wisconsin. If for some reason you happen to be anti-Catholic, then you won't.</p>

<p>By the way, the term "Roman Catholic" is a proper name. It is a "capitonym", if you will (like "Lutheran"). Capitalizing it has nothing to do with one's religious beliefs or attitudes toward Roman Catholics. Though it's fairly clear you are violating convention deliberately, not out of ignorance.</p>

<p>How are Catholic schools not Christian? </p>

<p>(I'm just honestly confused)</p>

<p>Conventional terminology, nothing more nothing less. Perhaps some well recognized entities will edify this stumbling block for your. </p>

<p>Illustration #1 -- The Christian Coalition of Colleges and Universities ... # of Roman Catholic institutions = 0</p>

<p>Illustration #2 -- The Coalition for Christian Outreach ... All Protestant pastors and laymen ministering on college campuses in approx 10 states, including the Catholic college campuses where they minister # of Roman Catholic priests, laymen, or student workers = 0</p>

<p>Illustration #3 -- The Council of Christian Colleges and Universities ... 113 institutions ...# of Roman Catholic institutions = 0</p>

<p>Illustration #4 -- North American Coalition of Christian Admissions Professionals -- includes college admission officers and HS guidance counselors ... # of Roman Catholic HSs, priests, colleges = 0</p>

<p>Illustration #5 -- National Association of Christian College Athletics -- # of Roman Catholic colleges and universities = 0</p>

<p>This could go on all day. Scads of Christian college and university associations, councils, coalitions, etc. and virtually none have any "Catholic" colleges or universities.</p>

<p>Taking a bit of a different tack ... I'm plenty confident there are many similar Catholic associations that are fully exclusive of Christian colleges and universities. And understandably. Because they aren't. </p>

<h1>of Christian affiliations noted on Notre Dame website = 0 Lots of Holy Cross stuff, Catholic stuff, nary a single mention of association with other "Christian" colleges and universities.</h1>

<p>So cry as you will, but each moan merely seems to further expose that when it comes to colleges and universites Christian = Catholic NOT! How many Catholics does it take to understand this? Sorry to be so "hard" on the brothers but duh! :confused: </p>

<p>It's terminology but more. It connotes from both sides "we're different" ... not the same.</p>

<p>btw, someone connoted Catholic being "like" Lutheran. Not quite. Lutheran is denominational. I'm not aware of any Catholics who consider their faith as a "denomination."</p>

<p>I really do not understand the argument you are presenting. Because there aren't Catholic schools in the Christian College groups you chose to name, Catholic Colleges are suddenly not Christian?
I consider my faith a denomination and I know many other Catholics that feel the same way. In fact I'm not aware of any Catholics that don't consider their faith a denomination.</p>

<p>Go ahead. Your turn now. Give us 5 associations that include BOTH Christian and RC schools ... and are labeled as ... Christian. Be interested to see what you might find. </p>

<p>btw, I'll bet a box of rosary beads the Pope does NOT consider Catholicism a "denomination." Can you direct me to some places that might edify and support your notion of that? </p>

<p>we're learning language does have import and value in communicating, but only when there is common understanding. btw, I believe that might be "...other Catholics who believe ..." Don't you think?</p>

<p>I haven't done anything other than ask a question and then tell you I don't understand what you are trying to say. </p>

<p>What do associations have to do with anything? I wasn't aware that Christianity was defined by how many associations a school is involved in. </p>

<p>I asked a question. How is that defensive? I questioned your argument, I haven't put forth any argument of my own view point other than evidence that counters your opinion. Opinions are fact.</p>

<p>Ok if we're going to play the pick mistypings in posts "Perhaps some well recognized entities will edify this stumbling block for your." What is that fragment supposed to even mean? </p>

<p>Christian</a> denomination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian</a> Denominations - ReligionFacts
Christian</a> Denominations - History and the Development of Christian Denominations</p>

<p>All of those list Catholicism as a denomination. Why don't you show me one person who has said otherwise? I'll see your rosary beads and throw in another box.</p>

<p>Why is this an issue? Most, if not all my Roman Catholic friends refer to themselves as "Catholic" or "Roman Catholic" . Moreover, the VAST majority of Roman Catholic institutions I know of (Boston College, Notre Dame, Etc.) refer to themselves as "Catholic". I think if the OP wanted a "Catholic" school she would have specifically asked for it.</p>