Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies

Parent Cafe
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<p>logosprincipal,</p>

<p>By the way, some Christians loves any “scientific evidence” that seems to suit them without questioning. 10 years ago, I saw a little booklet titled “satellite had found Noah Ark” in one of their bookstores in Hong Kong (probably still circulates among them). But in reality, all the claims throughout the years were all ultimately shown to be at best false, and at worst hoaxes. Some Christians also told me Albert Einstein was Christian. It turns out that’s not true either. Seriously, I don’t think any of those would make Christianity more or less valid. But some of them would hype any findings that side with them but get very skeptical/critical about those that don’t go their way. Pretty interesting…</p>

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<p>Sam Lee,</p>

<p>I’m sure that we all are more likely to accept evidence that agrees with the position that we already hold, yourself included. The challenge is to try to move beyond that tendency and seek for truth.</p>

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<p>Thanks. You seem like a nice reasonable person also. Since Christian standard is pretty absolute, I understand why they don’t accept that if that’s what they think their Bible tell them. It’s not like they want to argue against the Bible.</p>

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<p>I bet your church actually have quite a few of these youths that are struggling. Maybe this discussion helps you to be aware of their presence and maybe think of a way to help these hidden and silent ones.</p>

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<p>Also, even if they did find higher incidence of pedephiles among homosexuals than heterosexuals, it’s still a very low % as a whole. It really doen’t represent anything about gays/lesbians as a whole. Currently in the US, Asians have the lowest crime rate; does that mean other groups anything less? Does that mean other groups should remind people of criminals? It’s ridiculous, isn’t it? Yet, organizations like FRC tries to create a false image in people’s mind that homosexuals and pedephiles go hand in hand for political reason. That’s what really bugs me–that some Christians can be so malicious and unethical. Such stimatizing certainly doesn’t help providing a comfortable and constructive environment for the homosexual Christians that are struggling and trying to come forward to seek help within the church.</p>

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<p>“Much as we would like to “enlighten” them, it is they who feel more strongly that we are the ones living in a NEW Dark Age.”</p>

<p>So, enlighten them? To find Jesus? Because that is how I read it…once again, its YOUR religion as superior to others</p>

<p>So, without an outside essense telling you to be good, you have no self control? You have no sense INSIDE of you of basic hummanity and right and wrong? You can’t know for yourself what is the right thing to do? Your parents never said don’t steal because it hurts the other person, only said don’t steal because God says it is wrong?</p>

<p>Do we only treat others with compassion, caring, because its what God says, or because it is right?</p>

<p>Many people througout this world do not beleive in God and are good, decent, caring people…even the IDEA that unless you believe in God, you will not be a good person, a loving person, an honest person, a rightous person is pretty uncaring of other people</p>

<p>What about all the hate, the killing, the tutors, in the name of God?</p>

<p>My mother does not believe in God, and she is one of the most honest, caring, compassionate, giving people I know. My niece, who used to be “religious” is now more of a humanist and she spends her time helping teens in crisis</p>

<p>To think at only God fearing or God loving people know the difference between right and wrong…that is not very enlightened</p>

<p>I volunteer ALOT, and i meet all kinds of people who step up and help their fellow humans, and they come from all walks of life- all kinds of Churches, and many from no Church at all…</p>

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<p>I for one am very thankful that I have access to the CC boards- The media never allows such a debate to unfold as we have read here- it is healthy. Instead I only hear one side of an issue either from The NY times,NPR,Wall Street Journal,Rush Limbaugh,New Yorker Mag or network TV news. </p>

<p>SAM LEE- Thanks for the debate- I am enjoying this thread- realize this however- that the same zeal and energy that you will use to defend your opinion is equal to the same steadfast beliefs that some Christians have- My son’s observation on his campus is that the far left cause/agenda is equivalent to a religious movement. They quote the same lines,examples,stats and beliefs in unison. They will go out of their way to persuade him that he is wrong in maintaining his conservative beliefs. They have professors and administrators on their side and thus have created one overwhelming movement that has engulfed the college which has touched every aspect of college life and policy creation. They will not rest until everyone submits …which is to act and speak the liberal philosophy. He has been asked by two professors to rewrite his essays as the professor did not agree with my son’s approach to certain social issues. The stifiling of free speech seems to be the ultimate goal. Sounds like a religious movement to me. :)</p>

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<p>CITYGIRLS- You asked if I knew anything about humanism? I will say this, you would be quite surprised if you knew my background. Based on what you said: about your mother, Buddhism, etc. I would shatter all the myths that you may have regarding my comments or my being a conservative.</p>

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<p>cgm,</p>

<p>I did not make myself clear. When I said “enlighten them” I meant, to our Western, humanistic ways – not to my religion (which, by the way, I never claimed to have).</p>

<p>Of course, you make valid points regarding our ability to do and be good without the threat of “dvivne retribution” hanging over us. What ever impels us to “do the right thing” is anybody’s guess. I gather from your viewpoint that this “SENSE” you spoke of is inborn (since it is not some external pressure, like the existence of God). If that is true, then where is it lodged…in our genes, per chance? Now, I want you to SHOW me that wonderful and supremely important gene, because I did not know it existed, and maybe we should see to it that everyone is so genetically endowed! What a great plan!!</p>

<p>My view is that at birth we have absolutely no sense of right or wrong, good or bad. It is a LEARNED value. The best religion can do – and there IS value to religion – is to provide a framework/guideline to teach and enable people to practice doing and being good. Sociologically it is also important because it endorses “good values” as a desirable thing for society. True, much can be done to improve religion, but this business of “throwing out the baby with the bathwater” is couterproductive and only leads us back to the drawing board. </p>

<p>While some may acquire the necessary inner goodness, to be a credit to society, through means other than the church, they are a minority. I feel that the masses need a “larger than themselves” entity to help keep them on the “right path”, as it were.</p>

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<p>Leanid- The other night I watched another version of the ten commandments- I am assuming, although I should not, that the script was based on original version from the old testament, and I found it interesting that a man and woman were stoned to death because they committed adultery. No big deal in our society today…as a matter of fact the evening entertainment shows thrive on telling us about which TV/Movie Stars are sleeping with other. Whether they are married or not is irrelevant…I realize that civilization will advance and progress in the area of science ,humanities, arts,laws, etc. As society evolves we require new laws to deal with the ever changing civilization. Many will say that an atheist can possess morals and ethics without the need for religion. I agree that this is possible- my concern is that the three entities that have instilled a sense of ethics and morals in society are the very entities that are on the attack by the secular/PC police gangs: Parents,Teachers and Organized Religion. The family is being redefined for good or bad? Teachers are under self-imposed PC police gag orders that prevent them from administering discipline or acting as an authority figure in a child’s life. And we all know that religion is under attack by the secular world. I would be open to seeing religion play less of a role in society or disappear quite frankly…it is the substitute or the replacement for organized religion that is unknown to me. And many secularists or anti- religion followers never seem to provide a solution. They just say “religion has caused all the wars”, religion is opposed to abortion- Judas was actually a good guy- blah blah blah… </p>

<p>you said: While some may acquire the necessary inner goodness, to be a credit to society, through means other than the church, they are a minority. I feel that the masses need a “larger than themselves” entity to help keep them on the “right path”, as it were.</p>

<p>I agree…and until an alternative entity can be developed to instill morals,ethics and a sense of right and wrong in a child’s life religion is all we have- but then again we all speak one way or another from our experience- so I am sure many will disagree with me- flame away!</p>

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<p>Leanid: you said “My view is that at birth we have absolutely no sense of right or wrong, good or bad. It is a LEARNED value.”</p>

<p>There is a great deal of evidence that evolution favors the values we call “good” and “right”–such things as helping others, love, caring for the young and helpless, etc. Witness the Antarctic penguins, for example, who have evolved a remarkable group life–all in the interests of raising more penguins (which is what evolution is all about).</p>

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<p>songman,</p>

<p>Thanks. I agree with your remarks too.</p>

<p>One thing I wat to add is that religion provides that “threat” that awful things will befall us if we stray from the path. Where is that threat when no religion is there? Do we rely on a person’s innate good senses? I did not know people were that strong within themselves! I know…some are, but I feel quite certain that the vast majority are not! Witness news from around the world we are deluged with daily to appreciate how often we stray!</p>

<p>Absolute (oops, excuse me PC ers, I mean “relative”) humanism is incompatible with absolute religion. I think there is a small minority of us (maybe) who can embrace humanism to the benefit of mankind. The rest, I am afraid, need the shackles of a vengeful God to toe the line.</p>

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<p>Logosprincipal:

What is a "heterosexual pedophile? Or a “homosexual pedophile”? If you had been paying any attention to the comments on this thread and the links to outside information, you would have picked up on the fact that a person’s adult sexual orientation has no correlation to their likelihood to molest children - or to the sex of the children they molest. That’s the point you seem to be avoiding. An adult male homosexual is no more likely to molest a male child than is an adult male heterosexual. By defining an adult male who molests male children as a “homosexual” - and then transferring that label to adult males who are sexually attracted to other adult males - you have tautologically defined your way to the prechosen answer. But you haven’t reflected the real world, just created a logic construct which reinforces your prejudgment. </p>

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I’m actually not “close” to “the homosexual issue” - in fact, I have no clue as to what that “issue” is. I am close to the “human issue” though, and as it happens, that “issue” includes homosexuals. And while I know quite a few homosexuals, about all I can tell you about their “agenda” is that it seems to look pretty much like everyone else’s “agenda” - get a job, pay the bills, maybe raise a family, yada yada. I honestly couldn’t say I have been able to detect an “agenda” among my gay friends and business associates which I could distinguish from my own “agenda”.<br>

Yeah - activist websites - there’s the place to find out about what’s going on in the real world. I guess I should go to godhatesfags.com to find out about the Christian heterosexual “agenda” while I’m at it, eh? [/sarcasm]</p>

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<p>dmd,</p>

<p>I saw the movie. It was most touching to see the apparent care and tenderness the parents showed for their young. And, the sacrifices they made to try to ensure their chicks’ survival would make for an epic drama if humans were the subject. </p>

<p>I do, however, believe that this is not so much a matter of choice, as we humans have, as it is instinct (albeit a GOOD one). The penguins have adapted in the best way (perhaps only way?) their intelligence allows to survive in such an inhospitable environment. It does move one to want ascribe a certain “human quality” to the whole scene, and I bet there is not a humanist in the flock! </p>

<p>Maybe we need to look more to the real nobililty that other creatures have over us, than try to find “human” traits in them.</p>

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<p>Kluge,</p>

<p>Apparently you didn’t read the article that I posted the link to, but chose certain excerpts that you thought supported your position. I take it that you don’t agree with the point the author of that article made in saying that most pedophiles are not exclusively attracted to children. Do you think that when I refer to a “heterosexual pedophile” I’m concluding that any man who is attracted to adult women also molests girls? </p>

<p>You’re free to believe what you want and to support it on the board as you wish, which is my primary point.</p>

<p>I’ll take you at your word if you’re saying that you believe homosexuals as a group don’t want to see any changes made in our laws.</p>

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<p>Are parents not involved in instilling morals in their children, that doing the right thing can be taught because it should be</p>

<p>you don’t take your sisters toys because that hurts her feelings, you don’t steal because it is not yours, you don’t hit because its causes pain</p>

<p>please read about Humanism before you judge it, that is the least you can do</p>

<p>you seem to feel that only people that follow God are moral, with that I disagree wholeheartly, I know many “godless” people who have better moral compasses than some so called “Godful” people</p>

<p>going to Church ans saying the words is not enough, living a life, helping others, doing good works, being a good person means more to me than anything else</p>

<p>and so much harm has been done to people, so much justification of awful behavior, so many wars, so many deaths, so much conflict, done in the name of religion, it makes me sad</p>

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<p>Lets talk about the KKK, those were nice God fearing men, were they not</p>

<p>What about the Crusades?</p>

<p>What about the Salem Witch Trials?</p>

<p>You bias against those that do not follow your path is very obvious</p>

<p>And guess fear is what it takes for some people to be “good” while others are good just because it is the right thing to do and they do good things knowing that helping others is a calling, while others just don’t do wrong for fear of what may happen to them after they die</p>

<p>who do i prefer? the ones who do good works here and now, for their fellow humans, and dont’ just think about punishment</p>

<p>As for Judas, since you brought him up…what if he hadn’t done what he did, “betrayed” Jesus…if he had not done that, please tell me how Jesus would have fullfilled the prophecy, which required a “betrayal”</p>

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<p>songman,</p>

<p>haha…at least I feel I have better understanding about Christians than many Christians about homosexuals. I used to go to church after all and had read the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation (lots of so-called Chrstians don’t even do that). My sister is bisexual. My brother was molestered by a man in heterosexual marriage. How interesting I got these ties that put me into better perspective for this thread. ;)</p>

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<p>cgm - I assume you are directing your comments to someone other than me.</p>

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<p>It was for songman…</p>

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<p>Humanism- webster’s definition -devotion to the humanities also the revival of classical letters characteristic of the renaissance…A doctrine or way of life centered on human interests or values…</p>

<p>Citygirls-enlighten me- while some religions may act as if they hold true to a doctrine that is etched in stone, organized religion has been known to change with societal values as they emerge. For e.g. my church -American Episcopal now embraces gay members fully- and Unitarians have always been on the forefront of accepting emerging societal mores or values- they are not being humanistic? or are not into humanism?</p>