<p>At what type of university are the arrogant “weed-out” profs teaching? I don’t actually think that classes are taught in that way at my university (large public).</p>
<p>To be honest, high school classes in this country are way too easy. Grade inflation is norm. On the other hand, classes offered in our colleges (at least top 50 colleges) are excellent in both depth and breadth in comparison to colleges in other countries.
I think weed-out classes are just about right in their difficulties. It weed-out kids who are either not ready or not made for such classes. Let’s face it: Everyone is built differently in terms of his/her natural talents. Einstein will never be Mark Twain and vice versa. At times, kids need to suffer through before they find themselves in life.</p>
<p>At Local State U the Fall term of General Physics I is mostly pharmacy hopefuls, and the Spring term is mostly engineer wannabees. For some reason there is a need to weed out pre-pharm students, so even though both terms do EXACTLY the same homework sets, the Fall term exams are maybe 2X the difficulty of the Spring term exams. </p>
<p>Professors can control the means of “weeding” in a variety of ways - by the curve, by the difficulty of exams, by establishing that only a certain percentage of students get A, B, etc (rather than setting A as grade>90%, say). As far as I know there is nothing to prevent pharm students from taking General Physics I in the Spring, except it is inconvenient to their schedules. There is no need to “fail” half the class, since they need a certain GPA to be accepted to the pharm program, and sometimes just getting a C is enough to crush their chances. Nothing to prevent them from trying again, but it’s a time and money setback.</p>
<p>That said, OP, if S is worried about a particular course, I have never seen anyone sink in a lower division undergrad course who resorted to overkill in studying the material.</p>
<p>In all honesty weed-out classes are called such because there are people have this belief that everything should be handed to them on a silver platter and they dont have to work for what they want. If you have enough motivation to put in 2 or 3 hours a week to study the material and get help if necessary no class should really be a weed out.</p>
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Lol, for many engineering and pre-engineering courses, that would be more like 7-8 hours a week ;)</p>
<p>(Bracing to get smacked)</p>
<p>Am I the only person to see the benefits of what you call “weeder” classes and I see as “welcome to reality”? I think it’s better to find out as a freshman that you can’t handle the material than to find out much later. At my daughter’s school the professors don’t make the course intentionally too hard, but there are plenty of students who just don’t muster up. Take for instance, the student in her biology class who asked “if your heart doesn’t work right, can’t they just get you a new one?” Would you REALLY want this student getting into medical school and becoming your doctor? </p>
<p>My daughter’s anatomy teacher used to grade all tests on a curve, even though six of the kids (all from public high schools) received mid-90’s. He also from time to time would give answers to the students during the test itself, usually after my daughter and her friends had raced through the exams and handed them in. Daughter and friends were not happy -they are competing for a limited number of spots in the grad program - with the curve and the given answers, it would be theoretically possible for curved students to beat uncurved students on GPA. The graduate department for her major intervened, because they have been having to do remedial work with the 4th and 5th year students (graduate level of the program) because they’ve been getting too many students who are falling apart at the grad level. So then they fail out with a worthless undergrad degree in general health sciences.</p>
<p>Seriously, if the students can’t get through a difficult first level biology or organic chem class unless it is slow and easy, what would happen once they hit genetics and immunology? It may be doing the student a favor to learn early enough to change majors that they can’t hack their first choice.</p>
<p>This is true, KKmama, and I really think some courses are going to “weed out” many students without any effort on the part of the professor (to do so), simply by virtue of the material and/or the workload itself. There are many students who start in a particular major because someone has suggested it, without any real sense of what it will involve.</p>
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<p>There are arrogant physics, chem, calc, EE, whatnot professors, just as there are arrogant police officers, politicians, actors, poets, doctors, social workers, english profs…</p>
<p>It is a character issue, not an issue of degree (pun intended). Some people just respond to life that way. It is actually a backformation against insecurity, but that is a different subject. ;)</p>
<p>That was an actual question about university type, poetgrl. I agree that there are arrogant people all over. But even our most arrogant faculty member did not teach courses explicitly as weed-outs. It’s really not part of our culture. And since I’m at a large, public university, it’s the kind of setting where I’d expect weed-outs to be most prevalent. So, is it public universities elsewhere? Or a small set of universities across all types? Who is actually announcing that they are running weeder courses?</p>
<p>In my opinion, Caltech operated close to this way from about 1960 to the late 1970’s. A friend who went there claimed that they “flunked you in.” That is, the students didn’t actually flunk out, but got sufficiently low grades to make transferring extremely difficult. Since the Caltech entrance standards were very high, they were graduating a number of very smart people with low-ish expectations for future careers–I strongly suspect that they were then funneled into the defense industry, where their abilities became apparent again. This was a small-scale operation, though, since the entire Caltech entering classes at the time had about 225 students.</p>
<p>You know QM, I think you are actually making THE most important point on this thread. The courses aren’t taught to be weed out classes, they just aren’t taught to be grade-inflated. I think they become weed out classes because a lot of kids just don’t understand what an education in the hard sciences really entails. </p>
<p>So, the grading is tough, and that is not meant to weed anybody out, but it DOES weed people out, and that is not a “bad” thing or a “good” thing, It is what it is.</p>
<p>Thankfully my son is not pre-med, it takes a special breed of student to be able to handle those classes. I could start a whole other thread on students w/learning concerns who have managed to do well in their HS classes due to great parents, schools and teachers, are bound and determined to enter a medical field who fail, retake, take at CC level a variety of college classes when I think (could be wrong) they have no hope of succeeding at med school. These parents that I know have the financial means to cover many years of college education and I cant decide whether theyre blind to their students abilities, or if, since they can, theyre giving their student a chance to figure it out on their own. I have a very good friend who is one of those parents and I think in her case its the latter, or at least I hope so. </p>
<p>I on the other hand tend to lean the other way. I know son is bright, but I also know there are many other kids are who are brighter (many, many more looking at CC, lol), and who had the chance to take AP levels of many more classes. Hes not sure of the branch of engineering he wants, (leaning toward mechanical, civil or electrical w/an optics turn, or computer hardware engineering) hence he wants a program that has common freshman engineering requirements where he doesnt need to choose an emphasis till sophomore year. Which I think means he will have to take chemistry, and Im thinking (so many schools I lose track) weve been told all engineering majors have to do at least a semester of chemistry. He would only have the one 10th grade pre-ap (which I think would be an honors class at a lot of schools)chemistry class (and though I dont think it would really make a difference, he did compete at the state level in the Intel completion w/a chemistry based project, organic fire ant repellents, {if youre not from a state that has fire ants, consider yourself very blessed, they are horrid things}, which while it didnt place at the state level, did win a cash prize and a lovely certificate from the Army Corp of Engineers) but I doubt thats any help. So Im wondering if the junior college level class, while not replacing the class, might help level the field. </p>
<p>As far as AP credit, as long as he doesnt have to retake English or a foreign language (the foreign language issue eliminated several schools at the very beginning) hes fine w/retaking anything else. So hell play that one by ear, as the recommendation on skipping has varied from subject to subject and from school to school. He does do calculus based AP physics (which is why the class is very tiny, you have to have completed at least pre-ap PreCal to take AP physics and about half the kids that qualify are taking AP Chemistry (theyre the med/biology major kids, we actually have very few engineering/CS kids, most are either pre-med, business, (very big) and few odd majors sprinkled in there. </p>
<p>He seems to be a late bloomer, just coming into his academic heyday over the last two years and to his pleasure has actually outscored the top two kids in his grade from time to time, (not often, but enough, son says top kid is a jerk when it comes to the grade thing, though okay as an all-around-person) so maybe Im buying trouble where none is. I am pleased to hear the failing half the kids thing is probably a little exaggerated, (and weve heard this about A&M mostly). But I must admit, the fact that engineering students at many schools carry what I consider a low GPA to continue on or keep scholarships makes me wonder. </p>
<p>And yes, its not just engineering, daughter is at a Tier 2 school (there for a rather obscure art major, not academics and yes, was not my choice) and last years BF was a marketing major, who failed finance, twice and only squeaked by the third time and he had to have that for graduation. It was the math thing.</p>
<p>I suspect, and I admit, I have very little to go on, that for a lot of these kids who struggle, its not the material itself, but the work that has to be done. Every year, at Christmas time, the school asks those alumni who are home to come and speak to the juniors and seniors about their college experiences. Over and over its through I grumbled about the workload while here, it certainly helped come college time Our school tracks freshman grades (yes, the student and parent have to agree in writing to this, but Id say 95% do) and our average freshman GPA is a 3.0 (which the school tells us is good, even though thats just barely a B). Our kids do a lot of no paperwork, free spirited learning in lower school, (not the right words, but you know what I mean, grades dont matter much, though testing does, we test our kids every year) this starts changing in intermediate school 5th/6th intensifies in middle 7th/8th and they hit the ground running freshman year. Theyve made tweaks over the years, trying to align the curriculum so the students have the foundation they need by the time they get to HS. In HS, we do track by ability, (which I know is frowned on in places) exceptions can be made on a case by case basis. But all tracks have what is a very heavy workload compared to their friends in other schools. It is a rare Texas public school student who starts in 9th grade that doesnt drop out after the first year; the school has found they need to get the kids in at a younger age to prepare them. One reason we dont recruit athletes, which means our sports program, doesnt match the success of our academics, (not an issue w/me, but it is with some). Even our lower tracked kids in math & science (such as my art major daughter) are used to working hard. GC and math teacher dragged my daughter kicking and screaming through Trig in her junior year to get her the four years of math (she did take Algebra 1, not Pre-AP level, in 8th grade, but that was as advanced as she got in math) GC said colleges would want. </p>
<p>She started at a private 2 year college, not junior college level, but not top 50 level either, they bill themselves as the first 2 years of a 4 year degree, they do encourage the students to get their associates, (as some dont have the financial resources to continue on, the school is very generous w/aid) but at the same time, do the advising to line up with the 4 yr school the student will be transferring to. She opted to get her required college algebra out of the way first year, and was a little leery, because she hadnt had math since her junior year. There was a minimum SAT/ACT score for the class, I dont recall what it was, but must have not been too high, since she only scored somewhere in the lower 500s in math on the SAT and had maybe a 23/24 math ACT, so not too advanced. The class started w/about 22 kids, ended w/about 12 and only about 8 of those passed. Daughter said the main reason was they wouldnt do the work (not couldnt, but wouldnt). She said she told the class one time, when they were complaining about the homework that they were big babies (tact is not her strong point), since 6th grade she had done 20 & 30 problem sets of homework most nights, so a 30 problem home work set twice a week (Tues/Thursday class) was nothing. She also said they wouldnt show up for class and then wondered why they failed the tests. Now she was probably in the teachers office at least once a week, called her brother a time or two for help, but she ended up w/a solid B and I know if she could do the work, most of those other kids had the ability (if it sounds like Im knocking her, Im not, both of us were very pleased with the grade). </p>
<p>She thought that was the end of her math classes, but ironically she signed up for a personal finance class this semester, which she assumed would help her w/budgeting etc…(not her strong point), but turns out to be about investing, interest rates, etc… which of course involves math. Shes staying, its full of guys, and just a couple girls and the professor promised that while there was math in the class, there was not on the tests and if they did the assignments, attended the class, etc they would pass w/a good grade. It only meets once a week at night and she has lots of willing tutors, but as she puts it, OMG, math again, I thought I was done. </p>
<p>And finally if youve read this far, yes, I know I ramble, and yes my posts are long, but if youve read some of my other posts, youll know that hubby is in no condition to bounce thoughts off of, I have very little time any more to just socialize and writing my thoughts down helps me make sense of them. I could just write and not post, but what would be the fun in that, lol. So thanks for reading this far.</p>
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you’re not the only one - I said basically the same thing in my first post on this thread. </p>
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I don’t think it’s a ‘type of U’ so much as some profs themselves. I’m not saying it’s rampant - just that it does exist. And I’m not saying all classes considered by students as weeder classes have arrogant profs but the profs of these classes do know the percentage of students who get weeded out during their courses. </p>
<p>btw - the weeded students don’t all fail the course - many of them withdraw once they find out what the course is like - i.e. they’re on the path to failing, the material is too difficult for them, etc. Some of these students end up deciding to switch their major, which is sometimes good for them in the long run (see above) and sometimes they retake the class with a new level set based on their recent experience, have a bit of a head start over the other students because they already took a portion of the class, and end up getting through it and doing okay.</p>
<p>Well, as TS Eliot said, “How do I know what I think until I see what I have to say?” :)</p>
<p>Good screen name.</p>
<p>Good luck.
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<p>Yes, I think the weeding works both ways. “This is what the hard sciences are.” “ReallllllY? Who knew?”</p>
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<p>I’m in chemical engineering so I have had the best of both worlds and in all honesty I have never had to do 7-8 hours a week for any freshman and sophomore level class (aka the weed out classes) unless you count writing lab reports.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth: a friend of mine who attended a science magnet high school took an introductory physics course at Harvard and wound up with a B. He thought this meant that he should drop physics as a major, but talked with one of the professors, and was encouraged to continue. Won a major national fellowship for graduate work, and is now a professor at research university, probably in the top 25 in his field.</p>
<p>I think that high school grades may give students unrealistic expectations about college grading. College grades in science and engineering classes have probably risen a bit since the 1960’s, but not nearly at the same rate as in the arts & letters fields. I think this can make it difficult for a student to get a realistic sense of where his/her talents lie–i.e., the B in calculus may be worth more relative to the field than an A in some other courses.</p>
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I doubt that that’s typical - maybe you are an uber-student :). How many problems were you typically assigned in your Thermodynamics course per week, and what text did you use?</p>
<p>I haven’t gotten into thermo yet and Im sure it will be hard and require much more work than previous classes I have taken but from my understanding thermo isn’t so much a weed out class since its an upper division course (at least at my school) and at that point those who don’t belong are no longer in ChemE.</p>
<p>I was mostly talking about the more broad and notorious classes like E&M, Infinite Series, General Chem, OChem, DiffEqs, ect.</p>
<p>I don’t think I touched on the fact of whether weed-out classes were good, bad or even fair. To a certain point, I’d say they serve a valid function, if the advanced classes are going to be too far beyond you, better to find out early than late.</p>
<p>Son’s HS does not inflate grades, every year we loose students to the local public highs due to the fact they could be in the top 10% there, and that’s important to them or their parents. As you can probably tell, I like son’s school, on the whole and I’d put up our top 25%, heck probably our top 40% and bet money on them against the local HSs top 10% any day. (now I can only speak to our part of the country). Son has probably had 2, or at the most 3 rounded grades during his high school year. Basically the teachers feel that they do their job very well and would only round on the off chance that the benchmark students in a class do poorly (and a high C is not considered poor, our AP English teacher angered a few parents last year by insisting that a C halfway through the first semester wasn’t that bad) indicating that the material might need to be approached in a different way. But if the benchmark kids get it, then it’s assumed the material is there and perhaps the student needs to ask for help, study harder, etc… </p>
<p>So I think he has a realistic idea for the math and physics classes. My reason for giving his scores, was not to indicate that I think he’s brilliant by any means, only that he has some background data to consider in deciding which class or what level to take and his possible chance at succeeding. </p>
<p>But what should he base his chemistry choice or level on, or even how to know if he’ll be able to succeed. He’s only had the one year of 10th pre-AP chemistry and as another poster pointed out, every other kid could have had 2 years of chemistry, 5 on the AP test, 800 on the SAT chemistry subject test (I’m assuming there is one), be winners in Intel competitions, research papers, the whole nine yards and there he is w/his on year of 10th grade chemistry. </p>
<p>So if I’m understanding the scenario correctly, in a weed-out class of let’s say 10 (just because my math skills aren’t at his level) and the professor says highest GPA gets an A, next 2 get a B, last 2 get a C and the other half fails, and half the class is made up of the kids with multi-year classes, high SAT 2’s and/or APs in chemistry, the odds of my son, with his one year, of being one of the top 5, are logically slim to none. Now it might be possible, depending on my son’s effort to pass w/the low C, if the professor actually taught the subject, but I’m getting the impression that in the weed-out class, they just kind of throw the material out there and you either get it or don’t, not much actual teaching goes on. </p>
<p>So what can he do to prepare, would a junior college chemistry class over the summer help?, not to replace credit, but to prepare, or is the chemistry level at a junior college so below what’s needed, that it would be a waste of money? How do they get a realistic idea of what classes to choose, when they have nothing to base their choice on and the professor says half the class won’t make it through. </p>
<p>We’re assuming my son has the basic work ethic, enough sense to attend class, tutorial if needed, knows he should get to know his professor (because as someone else pointed out, it’s possible to get an idea of what that professor wants out of a student, a skill that I thankfully taught son when I realized English is to him, the the most unless class imaginable.)and puts in the time, because if he doesn’t do those things, then that’s a different story. But I’m getting the impression that while some students don’t do these things and some had inflated grades and expectations to begin, there are still students, who just because of the other uncontrollable factors, fail out. I mean there’s always going to be someone with a 90 and someone with a 99, they’re both A’s but if there are enough 99’s in your class, you could still be in the bottom half. </p>
<p>The remarks about a different term or a summer class, at the same school, gave me food for thought. Son should have enough dual credit/AP credit humanities credit to open up some possibilities for a more flexible schedule even if he opts out of AP physics or calculus credit so that might work.</p>
<p>There are a lot of introductory college texts that have problems to solve and a solutions manual to explain about half of them. If your son is concerned about his chemistry background, and has some time during the summer before college, I would recommend that he just buy a college text and its solutions manual on Amazon, and work through the problems. This would be cheaper even than a community college class, and good practice in learning material from a text without additional coverage in a lecture (a skill that most college profs expect students to acquire).</p>
<p>My niece had a VERY bad chem teacher in HS, that turned her off to the subject. She had to take college chem, which she did OK in but was very worried about OChem. To boost confidence and enhance her chances, she audited OChem at flagship U for summer school before enrolling in it at her U. She did great & was a very competitive candidate at all the podiatry schools where she applied–was accepted WITH merit $$ at all. She is currently completing her 1st year at her 1st choice. Would HIGHLY recommend having your child consider auditing a course that s/he is not confident in over the summer & taking it for grade in the following term.</p>
<p>S took all the AP credits he qualified for but also re-took all the courses (which the U preferred for all students to do). It really helped ease his transition from HS to college so he could focus on social & other aspects, with much of the academics on autopilot. 
Yes, he likely COULD have graduated earlier if he got exempted out of some of his math/physics & CS courses, but he & we have no regrets. It also helped provide a nice grade cushion for the later, tougher upper division courses.</p>