clarification on what exactly is a "weed-out class"

Parents Forum
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<p>As the title states, I’m looking for some clarification of just what a weed-out class is. I have of course heard the term before and I assumed it described an entry level or first year class, that moved quickly, didn’t have a lot of time for in-depth class discussion or instruction, was graded on a set criteria, ie; either right or wrong, no partial credit etc… and in general was intended to weed out those students who would; not do the work, or were unable to keep up w/the work, and/or didn’t have the ability to advance in the subject beyond the introductory level. </p>

<p>However several PM’s I’ve received on different subjects and from some of the posts I’ve read on CC discussion forums, are painting a picture of a class that is actually graded on a downward curve, where no one makes an A, B grades are rounded down to Cs, Cs to Ds and so forth and where the professor is making an effort to actually fail half the class. A few of the posters have said that they think this is just a threat, but when push comes to shove doesn’t hold true, but I’ve not seen any post confirming this from anyone who was actually in a class where the professor said this and for instance had the B that was supposed to wind up a C but actually ended up a B when all was said and done. </p>

<p>And if that’s the case, where a weed out class is actually designed to fail at least half the students in them, how does one get a realistic idea of whether or not they have a shot at passing. </p>

<p>For instance, take calculus; my son will have had 5 yrs of math when he finishes HS. He’s currently carrying an A in his AP calculus class, in a prep school where as far as I can determine doesn’t teach to tests, but teaches the subject and assumes the student will get the information they need. (at least of of the complaints I hear from some parents is that the teachers, didn’t teach to the AP test, my reply is, I don’t expect them to teach my son how to pass the test, I expect them to teach my son calculus, history, physics, etc… needless to say that’s not always a popular answer) so I have no idea how he’ll do on the AP exam. He doesn’t hit a rough patch often, tutorial is offered every day, I think he’s only gone in early a few times, got a 33 math ACT, 760 or 780 Math 2 SAT II, 720 SAT math score in his junior year. He’s used to doing problem sets every night, from 5th/6th grade on, does his calculus tests without the calculator (though he says the whole class grumbles), but that doesn’t mean he gets 100 or even 98/99 on all his assignments and tests. So on paper it looks like he should be able to manage the class (and he’s not the one wondering, I am), but he could be wrong and maybe he doesn’t get math as well as he thinks he does. How to tell?</p>

<p>And then there’s chemistry. I think all engineering majors have to take at least CHEM 1 (another weed-out class I understand), son has had one year of Pre-AP chemistry sophomore year. He’s pulled an A (it’s his English and French classes that are his downfall), and he liked it better than 9th grade Pre-AP Biology, but due to where it fell in our schools AP science rotation and the fact our school double-blocks AP Science and Math classes, he was unable to take the AP chemistry. He scored a 34 on the ACT science section, though I have no idea how much chemistry that involves (according to son, little if any), he took the Physics SAT 2, so no input there, so how the heck is he supposed to know if he can handle a chemistry class where the professor intends to fail half the class? Should he take it over the summer at our local (still 30 miles away) junior college? </p>

<p>And I don’t even know why the heck I’m all of a sudden second guessing his ability to perform in college, I didn’t do this w/D (social worries, yes, academic worries no, and she didn’t have his track record), so this is kind of freaking me out. I’ve woken up in the middle of the night more than once, thinking what if he gets there and can’t handle the classes. I’m thinking maybe I shouldn’t read the posts from parents about their student’s class and professor problems. </p>

<p>So are weed-out classes really that harsh? And if so, can you take a class again. Someone told my son, you couldn’t, if you didn’t pass CHEM 1, you weren’t allowed to take it over. He got the impression it wasn’t a scheduling issue, it was a, “if you can’t do it first time around, too bad deal” Is that the case?</p>

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<p>in general was intended to weed out those students who would; not do the work, or were unable to keep up w/the work, and/or didn’t have the ability to advance in the subject beyond the introductory level.</p>

<p>Pretty much this is it.</p>

<p>*are painting a picture of a class that is actually graded on a downward curve, where no one makes an A, B grades are rounded down to Cs, Cs to Ds and so forth and where the professor is making an effort to actually fail half the class. *</p>

<p>No, that’s not true in many/most cases. Some odd schools might do this. Since Gen Chem and OChem are considered to be “weeder classes,” it’s not accurate to suggest that no one gets A’s in those classes.</p>

<p>More likely what happens is that there isn’t a generous curve. There are a number of A’s and B’s given to those who deserve them, but the prof isn’t going to inflate grades so that most have A’s and B’s. </p>

<p>Weeding is done to “separate the men from the boys.” (no sexism intended.)</p>

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<p>If there’s a required course in which half the students routinely fail - and my kid had the option of taking that class at a community college over the summer - that is what I’d recommend. Too much stress and misery. Even if you are among the half of the students who pass the class (as are all of the kids of cc parents), wouldn’t it be awful to be in a class where the status quo is half of the students failing?</p>

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<p>I consider it as you describe in your first paragraph. It’s harsh on the students but in some cases can help a student decide whether that’s really the major for them or not when in a major that’s difficult and will be getting even more difficult - like most of the engineering/CS majors - better to find out earlier rather than later. OTOH it can weed out some students who could do okay with it if at a school with less rigor and perhaps do well in it as a career. I don’t think the ones weeded out is usually 50% in a single class but really, a lower percentage than that. Of course, many of those not actually weeded out take a GPA hit for it.</p>

<p>btw - My engineering (CS) D was able to skip taking Chem in college because of her AP chem credit.</p>

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<p>i always thought that the “weed out class” was more about endurance. If the student is willing to go to class, pay close attention and put as many hours of studying in as it takes (many), then that student will be in the top 1/3 or 1/4 of the class and be OK. Some students decided that they do not like it enough to do this. Especially when they are looking at two semesters of general chemistry followed by two semesters of organic chemistry.</p>

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<p>Our EE S was also able to convince the advisor to exempt him from chem because he had done well in HS chem & entered with >60 AP & college credits. (He did NOT have AP chem at any point and that was one of the few courses he asked to be exempted from.) S really had no interest in retaking the course, tho he still has a decent understanding of chem (had a pretty bad HS chem instructor–very disorganized).</p>

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<p>Scrib…I play around with this in my mind also, but from the prospective that my D has the option of exempting General Chemistry via AP exam (but should she?) and go directly into O Chemistry, and exempting Calculus via AP exam (but again, should she?) If she exempts and then shows up for upper division work not prepared to the University’s standards, she is in trouble. If she goes into Calc/Chem and meets “Jerky Prof 101” and his/her tests are basically not reasonable and does poorly…then she risks a strong GPA on courses she could of opted out of. Decisions, Decisions.</p>

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<p>Leaving aside students who are not prepared to study many hours each week if necessary, or who overload with academic and extracurricular commitments, and classes taught by professors inept at teaching the material - </p>

<p>For a pre-med, introductory weeder classes can be especially devastating at elite schools that do not allow many (if any) students to go into an honors section or skip to the next level. </p>

<p>This means, for instance, that a student with one year of, say, chemistry, can be sitting next to someone who obtained a 5 on the AP chem test, who was an Intel finalist in a chemistry related area or a semi-finalist for the chem olympiad team, or who is an international student who took several years of chemistry. Did I forget to mention that all of the above are as intelligent as your child (but better prepared) and are prepared to study as many hours as your child, to ace the course that is graded on a steep curve?
And then there are the students who did not study hard enough the first time through, and are retaking the class with prior exposure and a renewed commitment to doing well…</p>

<p>If your own child is well-prepared compared to their peers, the weeder class will not be as frightening. Here is one argument for a pre-med student to consider a state flagship, where they can decide whether or not to take an honors section and where they could be well-prepared compared to their peers, even in the honors section.</p>

<p>Students who major in engineering or sciences often take a GPA hit, or re-take one of these classes if necessary. And, probably, students at more elite schools are more easily forgiven a C or two early in their college careers, by the time they apply to medical schools.</p>

<p>All this said, it is usually recommended that students who intend to major in sciences re-take an intro science class, especially at an elite school or at a state school honors college, rather than take the AP credit.</p>

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<p>“All this said, it is usually recommended that students who intend to major in sciences re-take an intro science class, especially at an elite school or at a state school honors college, rather than take the AP credit.”</p>

<p>I have to agree with this, at least as to my son’s experience at a top ten LAC. He scored a 5 on the AP Chem test, and thought this meant he should skip Chem 1 at college, but he was encouraged by his advisor not to. He did very well in the course without much struggle, but was not sorry he took it.</p>

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<p>If there’s a required course in which half the students routinely fail - and my kid had the option of taking that class at a community college over the summer - that is what I’d recommend.</p>

<p>You can’t really do that if you’re a pre-health major. Med/Dental/Vet schools don’t like to see weeder classes (which are typically pre-reqs for professional school) taken at a CC.</p>

<p>*I don’t think the ones weeded out is usually 50% in a single class but really, a lower percentage than that. Of course, many of those not actually weeded out take a GPA hit for it.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>I agree… I don’t think there is an effort out there to fail half a class. That would be too devastating on the GPA for those students who will then be seeking other majors. If a prof routinely gave F’s to half his classes, there would be serious concern that he is a bad instructor. </p>

<p>In reality, those that are pre-med, once they get lowish grades in those weeder classes, they generally realize that they won’t be going to med school. So, simply handing out a bunch of C’s will generally be enough to weed out a bunch of kids. </p>

<p>My son has finished all his pre-med pre-reqs and the number of students who identified themselves as pre-med has dropped considerably. His school strongly recommends maintaining at least a 3.6 GPA cum GPA and science GPA to be a good applicant for med school (preferably higher and of course, a strong MCAT is needed as well.).</p>

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<p>For collegeshopping and others concerned about whether a student should skip an introductory science class, on the basis of AP credit: I recommend talking to an adviser in the area at the university where the student enrolls. The “right” answer does vary, depending on the university. At some, the student should go on to the next higher level (if interested in/required to continue the subject). At others, there will be special introductory-level courses open to students with AP credit (and often a minimum score requirement, or other qualifications). These tend not to repeat AP material. At others, there are multiple levels of a class, and students with AP credit tend to congregate in one class, which is about the right level; this will often repeat some of the AP material, but add a considerable amount of new material. At others, there is no introductory course that is actually like the AP course. Sometimes, you can get an idea from the online catalog–but I’d still recommend talking to an instructor in person.</p>

<p>At the university where I teach, it would be a matter of grave concern if 10% of the students failed a class, let alone 50%. I don’t know of any university where 50% fail anything–not even Caltech in the bad old days. Among all of the people I know, only one has ever encountered a class where no A’s were given, and that was just one class out of a full 4-year schedule (although the same appears to be true of one of JFK’s classes at Harvard).</p>

<p>Most classes that are considered “weed-out” classes are not intentionally taught that way. Some students have a very hard time handling calculus-based physics, especially electricity and magnetism, because they can “do” calculus operationally, but they haven’t understood it to a level that permits them to solve problems that require a student to use physical understanding in order to set up an integral, as the first step toward finding an answer (as opposed to just evaluating a given integral). There is always help available–but I think this really requires a “light bulb” moment for the student. </p>

<p>Organic chemistry is taught the way it is, because it is the sole exposure to organic chemistry during a BS degree, and students who pass need to be competent. Those who go into the chemical industry from a BS would be genuinely hazardous to others if they were not. I think med schools have tended to require organic chemistry because the memorization requirements are somewhat similar to those in med school, and they anticipate that the grading standards will be comparatively tough. But the organic chemists aren’t operating a weed-out course as a service to med schools; they are teaching what people in their field need.</p>

<p>I do not know of any university where a student cannot retake a failed course, as long as he/she is still enrolled. (I would guess that even the military academies permit students to retake courses?) It is possible that if a university averages both the original grade and the re-take into the GPA, and if admission to a major requires a certain GPA in specified pre-req courses, a failed course could keep the student out of the major.</p>

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<p>Just adding that while pre-med and engineering are famous for “weed-out”, it also occurs in business programs at many schools - particularly those that have a secondary admissions process to be accepted into the business school spring sophomore year. Many students enter college planning to be business majors - without really understanding what it entails. Their first economics or accounting class kills them - they drop the class - and reevaluate their potential major. In some ways - this seems cruel. But on the other hand - if their grades were going to be such that they were not going to be admitted to the business program anyway - better to find that out a semester early and choose something else.</p>

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<p>Along those lines, I have heard of an accounting prof who announces that the introductory class will separate the accountants from the bookkeepers. (No disrespect intended toward bookkeepers on my part.)</p>

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<p>This means, for instance, that a student with one year of, say, chemistry, can be sitting next to someone who obtained a 5 on the AP chem test, who was an Intel finalist in a chemistry related area or a semi-finalist for the chem olympiad team, or who is an international student who took several years of chemistry.</p>

<p>That’s why it is simply wrong-headed for a good and dedicated, but not stellar student, to aim for top elites if they want to be pre-med. Their GPAs are going to be hurt by their fellow super students who will set the harsh grading curve and grab all the As. </p>

<p>*If your own child is well-prepared compared to their peers, the weeder class will not be as frightening. Here is one argument for a pre-med student to consider a state flagship, where they can decide whether or not to take an honors section and where they could be well-prepared compared to their peers, even in the honors section.</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>Very true. When you’re well-prepared compared to your classroom peers, then you get to help set the curve.</p>

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<p>I asked this question of the AP teacher at my S’s HS: How did your students do at State Flagship U after they finished your class, with a 5 on the AP exam? She was extremely confident in her answer - they did fine taking the college credit. Just one more data point to add to S’s advisors recommendation.</p>

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<p>Here is a good hint: if possible, take the supposed “weed-out” class in the “off” semester. For example, every pre-med, engineering major, and chem major is taking introductory inorganic chemistry first semester (and, believe me: many, many of them have taken and aced the AP exam.) This may not be possible for engineers depending on the sequence, but if you are pre-med - take it second semester! You will now be a semester away from all of those other students in the sequence, but you will be fine in getting the courses in before MCATs. Even engineers may be able to do this if they are willing to take something over the summer. The “weed-out” factor will be somewhat diminished.</p>

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<p>

While that may be true to some extent the profs still know the weeding effect of the way the class is conducted and graded. Some of them (who also seem to be the more arrogant ones) actually seem quite proud that some relatively high percentage will be weeded out and have stated so at the beginning of the course.</p>

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<p>While that may be true to some extent the profs still know the weeding effect of the way the class is conducted and graded. Some of them (who also seem to be the more arrogant ones) actually seem quite proud that some relatively high percentage will be weeded out and have stated so at the beginning of the cours</p>

<p>My daughter took a class like that.
It had a reputation as the class more students failed than any other- but she wanted to take it anyway.
Even though she has LDs- was not receiving accommodations ( she thought she could do it without),& I believe it was only taught by one prof.</p>

<p>Before the drop deadline- she realized she wasn’t doing well & I strongly advised her to drop the course. She went to the prof & he talked her out of dropping so she kept trying. She failed it. :frowning: I am so mad that a prof would not sign her form when she asked, it wasn’t needed for her major & he has been quoted in college paper as " it is time for students to " fish or cut bait" & was not apologetic in the least, he saw his class as separating the " men from the boys".
I didn’t intervene then- but I am tempted to write a letter to the prof & to whomever approves curriculum, because students should be allowed to drop in most cases if they need to.</p>

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<p>When a student encounters an arrogant prof, they should understand that they need to go to office hours every week. The student and the prof will develop a relationship based on the student bringing questions and the prof answering those same questions. Over time, the prof becomes invested in this particular student and office hours will assist in understanding what material the prof will test for. All profs, in any field, have a point of view (even if they believe they are teaching objective material) about what it is a student “must” know in order to get a b or an a in a class. If you can discern the profs point of view on the relative importance of the material at hand, you really can slant your studying in favor of a higher grade. (This pressuposes an ability to handle the material, which I am assuming.)</p>

<p>Weed out classes are particularly difficult for high achieving AP top students in their freshman year. By the time they reached mid semester junior year, the high school teachers were familiar with them and tended to give them the benefit of the doubt, to praise them, and high schools, just in general, are set up so that these particular students “feel good” about themselves. It’s ice water to be in the first class with a professor who doesn’t think you are more brilliant than the rest of the class, and really doesnt care, anyway.</p>

<p>The first test in a course like this is the first test a student like this has ever seen with a grade like this. The psychological impact can be worse than the test itself. JMO</p>

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<p>Regarding AP Calculus credit, it depends on the school. However, the choice for those majoring in something where math is a core requirement (math, statistics, computer science, physics, chemistry, engineering, economics) is typically something like:</p>

<p>A. Jump ahead in honors math. (if honors math is offered)
B. Start over in honors math. (if honors math is offered)
C. Jump ahead in regular math.
D. Start over in regular math.</p>

<p>A student with a 5 in AP Calculus should probably pick A, B, or C, depending on the student and school (D would likely be uninteresting for such a student). A student with a 4 should probably pick B or D (maybe C). A student with a 3 should probably pick D (maybe B if really motivated). However, checking with the school, its math department, and the student’s intended major department is the best policy, since some schools have specific recommendations or policies regarding AP credit (some offer courses specifically for those with AP Calculus credit, since their regular math courses do not align exactly with the AP syllabus).</p>