I think it also depends on where this $100k comes from. If you have the means, great, but in my opinion, it is never a good idea to incur too much debt, and $100k is not a small sum. Could go a long way toward grad school or as a buffer if she tries to start a career right after BM.
Congratulations!! Both are great schools for jazz! Is your D a vocalist or instrumentalist? Can she arrange online lessons with assigned teacher? Are there any online campus tours??? Some schools are doing that.
There was a female jazz drummer’s parent in last year’s music journey thread. If I remember correctly, she was debating between Frost (Jazz) and USC (popular music). And she did choose USC even though Frost offered her a large scholarship. Was it DrummerDad18???
More ensembles can either be better or worse. Big schools like UNT often have many ensembles but it’s pretty much impossible to make it into the top ensembles as an undergrad, meaning you don’t get contact with the top conductors, only with maybe a grad student in charge of a lower-tier ensemble. I’m a choral major and at USC the head of the choral dept has been very proactive in recruiting. I think he personally mentors the undergrads as well as the grad students. Also, the top choir at USC is very heavily populated by undergrads and even freshman voice & choral majors. At the Q&A I went to, a viola major said he loves being in an orchestra with grad students because they are asked to critique each other, so he not only gets feed back from the grads but also gets to give feedback himself.
I have no experience with Miami. I did record the Q&A session at USC audition weekend when I went. If you would like to have it PM me!
Hey yes, that was me from last year!
Our situation was slightly different, but can definitely give you some thoughts.
Our D actually applied to Jazz at UM but Pop at USC.
We knew going in that meant she would be eligible for merit $ at Frost but not at Thornton. But we were lucky enough to not have to make the decision based on money as the first order issue.
She ended up getting multiple bumps to her merit award at Frost during the decision process, and as expected, no $ were available from Thornton due to it being the Pop program.
In the end, she picked Thornton for few reasons:
- While she loves playing both jazz and pop, she sees her professional development focusing beyond jazz after school so preferred to begin building that network now.
- She would (again) have likely been one of only a couple of women in the jazz program as an instrumentalist. And that was a drag throughout high school and pre-college programs and frankly she was looking for a change.
- She also thought it more likely she would want to end up in LA vs. Miami long term. She had many musician friends who went to Frost and had to rebuild their professional networks in Nashville, NYC or LA afterwards.
Now I will say as the guy footing the bill for this, there was a lot of appeal to the big $ from Frost, but as I hadn’t made that a requirement when we started the process it didn’t feel right to impose it after she got into both schools.
I rationalized it to myself partially by saying that a USC Diploma is “worth more” in the free market world we live in than a UM one. Broadly speaking. So it’s worth paying more for.
I will say she’s thriving there (or was until the virus made her come home and have to do performance collabs over Zoom/Acapella lol). The kids in both the Pop and Jazz programs have turned out to be amazing kids. Smart, driven, obviously talented, and very supportive of one another. None of the competitive vibes she experienced at her other jazz school programs.
And yes, the academics at USC are spectacular. My daughter does what she needs to do, but she’s definitely not a double major driven type kid. But her friends love the academics there. So many choices and killer resources. It’s great to have the other arts related programs on campus for collab opportunities in film, dance, etc.
So long story short, she hasn’t regretted her decisions once and can’t wait to get back there. But she also loved the jazz faculty at Frost and it broke her heart to tell them no last year. So there’s no going wrong with the choices your D has.
@Newmommy9999 , my son faced a similar choice a couple of years ago with a similar scholarship discrepancy between USC and Frost, though for classical vocal performance. I also have a daughter who graduated from USC last year. One interesting fact is that the dean at Frost was the former head of jazz studies at USC. He talked a lot about USC being more regimented in its approach to jazz, with everyone in their own “silo” and less collaboration across musical disciplines. He emphasized Miami was focused on collaboration, and on job prospects. I was impressed by him. Though not a jazz musician, one reason my son did not choose Thornton was it did seem too formal to him, and he just was not as comfortable there (to his older sibling’s chagrin). Now, maybe that has changed more recently. I do agree that USC is more academic, but I do not think it is so much the better school over Miami to be worth the price difference if your son does not have a strong preference.
@Racingfan53
At UNT, it’s definitely not true that undergrads don’t make it into the top choral ensembles. A few freshmen and sophomores are in the top choirs and plenty of upperclassmen. I don’t know of any freshmen in the baroque choir. There’s a freshman or two in acapella choir, several in University Singers, many in concert choir.
It may be harder for undergrads to get into the top jazz ensembles at UNT. If @goforth is still around he may have some insight on that.
One comment from your original post: she wants to double major. Have you looked closely at the schools, teachers and curriculum concerning a double major or do you mean double degree? Not all teachers, schools, curriculums are supportive of double majors/double degrees. If she wants to do music, a BM, and a liberal arts area of study that’s a BA…so a double degree. Most double degree programs take 5 years. If you assume you can go to USC and do lots of academic work along with music studies I would suggest looking closely at semester by semester curriculum. Most BMs are not real flexible. It may take 5 year. Then a case could be made for 4 years at Frost and save the money for grad school in academics or launching her career. Of course you may want USC regardless…and maybe know about the double degree/major issue…but many students start college gunning to pursue other studies only to find themselves competing with brilliant musicians dedicating 100% of their energy and time to music…while they aren’t…which impacts progress. I don’t know if this helps at all but food for thought.
@Parentof2014grad thank you for correcting me. I had not known that. That makes me happy as a future UNT student 
I believe GoForth did say that the top tier jazz ensembles are extremely grad heavy.
The opera I saw at UNT, though, was cast almost entirely of grads. There was a sophomore and a super-senior in the cast and a few undergrads in the opera chorus. No non-music majors. I don’t know what it’s like at other schools.
@Racingfan53
My son is a freshman voice student at UNT. He says there’s fewer semesters of opera requirements for undergrad than grad students so the opera program is grad heavy in that regard. He says leading roles to go to grad students but undergrads can and do get cast in roles and in the chorus. In addition, all the operas are double cast so there are more opportunities.
He loves it at UNT. Hope you do too!
@Newmommy9999 since circumstances prevented a visit to Thornton, perhaps you could contact them and a virtual tour could be arranged along with meeting teacher and other relevant people.
Like @Bridgenail, I wondered about this from your original post:
“The general consensus among our family and friends is that USC is worth the difference, especially since she wants to double major outside of the music schools.”
You might want to read the Double Degree Dilemma essay posted closer to the top of this forum, if you haven’t already. It really clarifies double major versus double degree. A BM is an intensive course of study with foundational courses, so a double major may be difficult. A double degree might be possible in 5 years.
I would check out the required general education classes at each school to see how much room there is in the curriculum. Usually they make up 1/4-1/3 of the BM degree, with the rest in music of course.
Look at the requirements for the other desired major and see how those, combined with the requirements for the BM, would determine the path. Science can be especially hard to combine since labs make for scheduling conflicts.
Some music schools are more supportive of double degrees than others. Other people on here might be able to shed light on that issue for these two schools.
If your daughter has strong interests in both music and another academic area, then a double degree might be the best path, but of course at USC that raises and already higher price.
On the other hand, if the other area of study is a “backup” many of us would advise to go ahead and do the BM without worrying about future job prospects, BM degrees are bachelors degrees and give you access to jobs and grad schools that require that degree. And she can go on to grad school and study what she wants.
Finally, it might be legitimate to think about the relative quality of those gen eds, which would usually be 10 classes. But overall the quality of the music program is tops.
Tough call. $100k is a lot for a musician but if it doesn’t involve loans, it is a choice to consider along with all the other factors, including location, size, “vibe”, and most importantly fit for music study. Good luck!
@Parentof2014grad I am excited about UNT. I actually just spoke with one of the choral profs there. He said that freshmen are placed in a “lower” choir to sort of prove themselves in terms of commitment and leadership, but the A Cappella Choir is 3/4 undergrads because the ensemble requirements for grad students are very light. That made me very happy!
@compmom @bridgenail @vistajay @drummerdad18 @JeJeJe Thanks so much for the great input! My daughter is a jazz vocalist. She also wants to go beyond jazz with her music after school but is passionate about jazz and brings her jazz influence into all of her original - non jazz music. She wants to double major - not dual degree. AT USC jazz vocals are a BA, not a BM. At Frost it is a BM but with honors the gen ed requirements are completely gone so a second major is still do-able. Her second major is math as she just loves math and always has loved math - so not so much a backup as a second passion. But from a parent perspective - love the backup! I’m a little confused by the comment about everyone being in their own silo. She does want to collaborate across disciplines.
@Newmommy9999 she sounds like a perfect person for double major or degree, given her actual passion for both music and math. Thanks for the explanation which may help others!
How does a double major for music and math work at Frost, since it is at different schools within the larger university? It would be good for others to know. Assuming gen eds aren’t a problem at USC in terms of having room for a math major as well- is that right?
Music and math are both intensive and have sequential courses but there are students who pull it off.
It sounds like this can work out at either school so makes for a tough decision.
I caught the detail that she likes to write music (non-jazz) and that she brings a jazz influence to that. Maybe she will end up going in a composition direction! Vijay Iyer is an example of a composer with jazz influence https://vijay-iyer.com/about/
She seems like a kid who will have many options and possible directions in coming years and she is wise to keep them all open for undergrad, as much as possible.
@Newmommy9999 I am sure you have already seen this, but in case you haven’t, here is the link to the major requirements (including electives) for a BA in jazz vocals at USC. https://catalogue.usc.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=11&poid=11049&returnto=3756
I second the thoughts that the academics at USC are top-notch. Good luck with your family’s decision! There are also a HUGE number of academic minors that a student can choose from, and even a BM can leave room for a minor, although it would use up pretty much all the available elective slots.
@newmommy9999 - a few other comments…nothing is meant to sound “ominous”…just different perspectives. Also I’m not a jazz parent nor have any specific knowledge on either school. I think that she could go to either and get a great education.
1.) Double majors/degrees/interests - go for it as you seem well-informed. Just be aware that two things can happen along the way. My D had 2 interests and chose her school due to that. The school and teacher were supportive with a curriculum to follow…still it presented challenges. First, class scheduling can be difficult. Often sequential classes are “required” for most disciplines…and they seem to always overlap. Music theory may overlap by a meer 15 minutes for another required math class…heavy sigh. There may be an evening class…but then you have an ensemble requirement. Departments know not to overlap essential classes BUT in most cases the math and music depts won’t be working together to assure no overlap. Second, all areas of study can require some labs, study groups or ensembles (for music). Music will most likely require ensembles…just when math is requiring another type of group meeting (or your kid would really benefit from a study group with peers before a big math test). Many music students will try to be done with classes mid-afternoon (or earlier) for ensemble requirements…again limiting time in your day for study groups or late math classes. This is common for students with double interests. Working closely with an academic advisor (sometime two in different depts) is essential to figure out how to get all credits in. My D survived it, but it was challenging.
2.) Silos. I can’t really comment on jazz or the schools specifically but the term is often used for the frustrating lack of collarboration (or maybe “freedom”) in music schools…sometimes. Some of it (in hindsight) may have to do with the “fundamentals” (imho) that music schools require. Most music student will complain about music theory classes etc in the early years. Some schools really put you through your paces to be sure you come out a “full” musician…in their eyes. So again looking at the curriculum can give you some clues along with ensemble requirements. With a BA, there may be more flexibility and collaboration time…but Frost may really try to instill that at their school regardless of the BM (but I’m just guessing here). My experience is more “classical” BM where…yes…your days and time can be pretty “dictated”. The school has 4 short years to take you from point A to point Z…and they will work you (to the point of discouraging some activities that would be fun and collaborative…my D wanted to wonder over to the MT silo and was told…maybe not now often…). Still many students absolutely love the intense music study. Collaboration is always a part of music schools…it just who is deciding…you or the curriculum/time allowed? My D fought it the whole way…just bc that’s her personality. In hindsight, she realizes it made her an excellent musician…when all she wanted to do was become a better singer and perform…lol.
I hope that this helps in some way. Again I’m NOT an expert with jazz nor these schools. Just giving some insights to common music school complaints…while not sharing as much of the positives…most kids love their schools and studies (even while complaining about silos and bad schedules with the dreaded 8 am class!). If she ends up complaining about these issues…she’ll be in good company.
@newmommy9999 Hi, I think you said you talked to Frost about double-majoring. My kid is in a similar situation as your daughter, choosing between Frost and another school. Like your daughter, mine doesn’t want to lose the connection to STEM. Did Frost seem supportive of double-majoring? Thanks in advance for whatever insight you can provide.
The scheduling issues may be the most important thing to investigate (detailed above by @bridgenail).
Thoughts on the idea of a VP major (soprano) starting as a freshman at a state university this fall for financial reasons and applying as a transfer student to other schools next year with the hope of scholarship money?
We are wondering how difficult it is to transfer and what schools would be looking for in a transfer vs. a freshman. Is it possible to get scholarships when you transfer? Should she re-apply to a program that admitted her this year but was financially out of reach despite the school being known to give merit? Or is it better to just stick with the school we can afford for four years (decidely not a “name” program, but with a voice teacher she likes) and hope she’ll get scholarships to grad school?
Merit money just wasn’t there for her in this round, despite strong applications and carefully choosing to apply only to places known to give academic or music merit. One state school even admitted her to its academic honors program but that designation came with no money. Without merit money, we can only afford the public in-state option.
She’s interested in starting where she can and trying again with applications next year, but I’d like to get an idea of whether that is realistic.
Will her first choice not-State school accept a one-year deferment? When my kid was auditioning, there were several transfer students at each audition. It’s not at all uncommon.
As for the teacher at the state school, does he or she send some kids (maybe not all but a few successes) to reputable grad schools? Do the students win/participate in competitions? You can ask the teacher about this. Does the school have any grad students in music…particularly voice?