Class of 29 Undergrad/Class of 27 Grad: All Things Related to Music School Applications (prescreens/tours/interviews/auditions/supplements/etc)

College Majors Music Majors
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You can only do what you can do, but I agree with others, try, TooManyViolinists had some great suggestions in terms of instruments and programs.

One thing to be careful about is judging your kid (or having her) against others. You are going to see a lot of kids who started young, who are doing concerto competitions (don’t get me going on prodigies, a word that should be relegated to the dust bin), you hear of all kinds of crazy things, kids from well off families doing lessons every day, and it can feel like it is impossible…and I can tell you that first of all, some of what you are hearing is kind of half true. I have heard parents saying their 10 year old was playing the tchaikovsky concerto (which is an advanced one to people not in the violin world), and I saw the kid playing it and, well, let’s be kind and say it was cute. I remember my son (he was like 11 or 12, had just started with a much higher level teacher) seeing this ad for a performance at some church, touting this like 9 year old girl doing a recital playing some sonatas and a concerto, how she made her carnegie hall debut at 7, etc etc…we looked it up, her carnegie hall debut was some music school in NYC rented out carnegie for a music competition (of their students) and she won it…and I know someone who went, said she wasn’t the cats meow, was another prodigy wanna be. You will see kids in competitions like the Junior Menuhin who are her age, and feel like 'wow, she isn’t anywhere near there". It is great to see the level other kids are at, it can be a driving force, but there are no rules. If you told me your daughter was 14 and just starting to play, I would tell you as gently as I could that that might be an insurmountable barrier (not impossible, my son met a cellist in grad school who started playing at 15, got into a really incredibly high level program and then was in the same master’s program as my son, so it is possible).

There is always a range of playing with students and what is it they say, past performance is no indication of future performance? This is really true. The hotshot kid winning competitions right and left in high school fizzles out. In the one competition my son was in in high school (NMTA nationals), he lost out to this kid he later saw at NEC, where he went undergrad, and the kid wasn’t that good. It used to amuse me to read some of the forums on the violin channel and other places, to ready stuff that I absolutely knew was bs from being in that world.

The upshot is that while it is important to know the level out there (and if you have a good teacher, they will know), and to do the best you can with things, the most important being that your D puts the effort into learning. One nice thing technology does is she can listen to recordings, my son used to spend a lot of time listening to the recordings of famous violinists to see what they were doing, and decide also what he felt was his style, not copying them, but rather the kinds of things that struck a chord in him. He says it really helped him dedicate himself to practicing, that it was interesting working to get that sound.

I also recommend that she may want to, if she already isn’t, to learn music theory. There are online courses out there and while music theory is something a lot of music students dread (my son loved it, still does), it can really help with understanding the music and how to play it.

Again, there is no golden path with any of this. I have seen high level students who didn’t do the summer programs and the like, and while I encourage you to see if there are ways you can afford it, I don’t think it necessarily is a blocker (that doesn’t mean that TMV is wrong, a lot of the kids getting into the top programs have done those things).

One thing I recommend she try is the New York String Orchestra Seminar. It is held in NYC roughly december 19 to 28. It is free in terms of tuition, room and board (you would need to pay for travel to it), and it is an intensive, fun experience, my son did it one year, it is run by Jaime Laredo. They do two performances at Carnegie Hall plus they do chamber as well. I think the youngest age is 16 to audition. It is very competitive, and isn’t easy to get into, but is an example of a great program that is free. It is something to work towards, and I think your D would love it. I also know they look for kids who are doing what your D is, they try to have a wide spread in terms of where the kids come from, and a variety of backgrounds.

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NYSOS is awesome, but last year there were 4 high schoolers in it out of like, what, 60 students in the orchestra, most of whom were from all top conservatories? It’s a long shot and the high schooler has to be super mature because they are treated the same way as the 21+ crowd … in a hotel in NYC, which some parents might not be ready for…NYO-USA and NYO2 looks for people from varying geographical backgrounds/life stories, etc., but NYSOS is more about having the best audition regardless of those other factors.

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I didn’t realize NYSOS had changed, so they are leaning like a lot of programs towards the college level, I am sorry to hear that, when my son did it they had a lot of high school age kids. This has sadly become common, everyone wants to move upscale, become more elite, etc (I think they all see themselves as Marlboro or Aspen). My son did it in high school (which is now a long time ago…), it was different back then.

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For the past two years, I’ve heard of three high school musicians rejected from NYSOS but accepted to NYO, one was also accepted to Perlman from the waitlist. Summer programs like Interlochen and BUTI may be better fits for high school string players.

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Also, when your musician is like 15 or 16 I think, you could apply to NSO SMI for the summer - it’s a free program through the National Symphony in DC and that one has both high school age and “younger” college students as opposed to NYSOS which is older/pre-professional. NSO SMI is a great program for musicians who are really good and young but maybe not getting into the very “top” festivals or not ready for those, so I recommend that to all strings players who fit that description.

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@Mom2aphysicsgeek Just want to add another dimension to this discussion. Has your daughter considered a BA in music? BA degrees are mostly not performance degrees, but offer theory, musicianship, analysis, composition, music history, ethnomusicology along with sometimes stellar extracurricular performance. Often lessons are funded and for credit, and certain types of performance can also be for credit.

My music kid got into some top conservatories with merit around $17k but we could not afford them. Years later they have a doctorate in music and teach at a university. Some of their friends, who also did a BA rather than BM, have thriving careers- some did PhD, some did MM, lots of different paths.

This discussion of being “good enough” for conservatory makes me feel stressed!

We strategized so that our kid did conservatory prep for the last two years of high school, worked with a professor at a university for two years, and attended a summer program for two years. This was for composition though they were also an instrumentalist. We could not have afforded any of that for more than two years but in the end the expense was worth it because it earned a nearly free BA program with financial aid.

For a bA in music application, your daughter would submit a music supplement with recording.video, music resume and 1-2 letters of recommendation. Summer programs and going outside the usual high school music activities can help with the resume along with making connections to peers and teachers and developing skills.

That said, I believe it was the letters of recommendation that got my kid into the Ivy and the LAC with generous aid and I doubt that anyone at those schools even listened to the actual recording!

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This is so sad and definitely a worry for us and probably anyone who hits that “doesn’t have much need” (according to FAFSA) but also doesn’t have $70K a year laying around. Especially if a kid wants a performance degree and is at the top of the pack so to speak to get into top schools, then I hate how this affordability thing can prevent them actually going to the best places that they’ve worked so hard for and where they should be going to be with others of their level. Scholarships of 15, 20, even 40K still don’t make a school pushing $90K affordable.

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@BassFam10309 that was awhile ago. Not sad! They got a BA in music at a top school (supplement helped with admissions), got a doctorate in music and are doing fine. Life is flexible!

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This is not just an issue for musicians. It isa universal reality for advanced students from families who cannot afford top schools. We faced the same problem with a ds who was so advanced in math and physics that he had essentially earned minors in both in high schook. We have a dd who wanted to attend a critical language flagship bc she was advanced in the language (had international awards and had represented the US at an international olympiad). None of the CLFs offered merit. Both ds and dd attended flagship U’s fullride, but both schools were far below “top” ranked. Ds made it work by being part of a small elite honors program and taking grad classes as an UG. Dd made it work by seeking out interactions with professors and opportunities like CLS (for which she was selected twice). Both of them, now adults, are very happy with the paths they took even if they differed from “ideal.”

We are preparing our musician for the most likely outcome, a detoured route from her most preferred one. Hardwork, enthusiasm, and willing to explore/pursue options that occur can take them a long way.

This is definitely a career choice that is not linear, so approaching college that way is probably a realistic life experience.

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Exactly.

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Great post with many helpful comments.

I just wanted to clarify one point. When people are looking to pursue a music degree, I don’t always assume that they are “the met or bust”…a common refrain of some Freshmen Voice students at my D’s UG. Most would be bust, including my D.

So I do respect your opinion on Violin and the necessity to have a certain pedigree to get in the top conservatory for UG with a top teacher…gunning for a full-time orchestra position. As you know better than I do…even for those kids…it’s still small numbers that get the full-time positions.

My comments are to students thinking about a music degree who have the passion and determination to apply and see where it takes them. They will get a college degree. My D has many friends who play in regional orchestras, mid to small operas, theaters and also teach…and make a living in that way. Or they do it as a hobby and get a job related or unrelated to music.

I do assume (which can be dangerous) that people do know how difficult it is to get to the top of the heap with an orchestra, or in opera, or in ensembles. Still I don’t think that it’s a reason to quit early. As kids get closer to applying, I think teachers will be having conversations with them. They can also change while in college…which isn’t rare.

When my kid entered college…I thought…oh boy…here we go…just kind of wish she was getting a different degree so I wouldn’t have to keep assuring everyone I wasn’t crazy…

And thanks for your insight on the selective conservatories!

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We know many young musicians who were/are at the top of the pack who did not attend the most prestigious programs, likely for financial reasons. They manage to thrive even if not able to attend one of the really elite conservatories. High level talent (with drive/hard work and the ability to make connections) seems to rise to the top. It is just that a different path is followed.

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The key with music performance is the teacher most of all. The top conservatories have the advantage that even though there is a range of students there, all of them pretty much are at a high level. That can drive a student forward, being in that environment, but if the student is motivated it isn’t a requisite. I think playing at a high level is, but it to me is absolutely insane getting loans to pay for music school. There are teachers who teach at high level programs and at those not quite as high (there were teachers in violin teaching at Juilliard who also taught at Mannes; Mannes though a really good program is not as high level as Juilliard , in the past teachers teaching at Juilliard also taught at state programs like SUNY Stonybrook.

Music is not a linear path and there isn’t any golden rule on making it. Getting into a high level orchestra (meaning a full time orchestra) is extremely difficult (not that it was ever easy), the number of jobs like that that pay a decent wage for a full time position has declined. Ensemble playing like Chamber music is a difficult path, getting into an existing group when a member leaves is one way, the other is to form your own. The former is exceedingly difficult because the fit in a group is so important, and usually it happens via networking IME. If you form a group, it is a long slog, competitions are a common road as is getting into post grad residency programs where they get mentored, but it is a long, hard slog (for the record, my S is part of such a group). A lot of it can depend on networking, on mentoring, it isn’t easy.

Any path you take has its plusses and minuses. Colburn is a top level conservatory that is totally free (and is also very small). It attracts the top students, and they have very strong faculty (well, at least on what I know), but because it is totally free it is really competitive, it might be harder than even a juilliard because of that. Its small size also can be a detriment (it depends on the student).

But speaking of violin, there are great teachers at schools that aren’t the top conservatories, from memory SF conservatory and the Boston Conservatory had some good violin faculty.

My take is you really have to go into it with a love for it but with an eye towards reality. I could make the argument that music schools should all be tuition free, given how dicey making a living in it is and how it precludes many kids because of the cost, but that is always going to be limited (and therein is where a really good student can play an angle, a ‘lesser’ program with a good teacher may be willing to offer a lot of aid to go to their program whereas the higher level one won’t).

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I remember the top ensemble director at my son’s program saying “get into music NOT into debt.” It resonated with my son and myself and coincidentally it is where he wound up…mostly for the guitar professor he wanted to work with but with the added bonus of no debt.

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Question RE Berklee for anyone who knows-- If they don’t require pre-screens, how do they determine if students get an audition?

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Everyone my son knew got an audition…audition day was WILD.

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I took my D for a visit to the University of Delawares school of music. It was a beautiful day and it’s been unseasonably warm and in a drought but made for a good day to walk around some. The performance spaces are really nice but the rest of the school is a bit dated. The building was built in the 1950’s and was very warm in the main center of activity. I think the classrooms are air conditioned fortunately. She had a free music lesson which was great and he’s definitely an instructor D would be happy to work with. It had been mentioned to D that while UD doesn’t really consider showing interest for admission, individual departments can especially for merit. D has already applied and just waiting on the school to process her app before she can schedule the audition, we had no plans to visit until we got that tid bit. One of D’s music teachers went to UD and said it was the best time of his life and longs to go back to all the fun.

There’s a marching band requirement of at least 2 years (ad rep couldn’t remember exact) for music majors which isn’t make or break for D but she wasn’t really considering any school for their mb.

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Son turned in 3 prescreens for EA schools last night. Thanks again for all the advice! It really helped him to calm down and focus, and realize that good enough was good enough and the most important thing was to have something to turn in, on time :sweat_smile:

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We finally submitted the pre screen for Blair ED1. Now the wait to see if she qualifies for audition.

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Hello! My son is still a junior, but very interested in JHU/Peabody (jazz) and visited it during the summer.
The Peabody tour guide told us that double degree students have to live on the Peabody dorm and basically fully focus on music curriculum during their freshman year. Is this true? My son is worried that if he can only start taking STEM101 classes in the sophomore year, he won’t get to know his classmates on JHU campus and may feel left behind, and he will forget all the math/science knowledge by the end of the freshman year…