No idea unfortunately! I think a number of students got into NYU for music last year, you could check the thread and contact parents directly.
Edited to add: @crabbydaddy was the parent of an excellent jazz student who was accepted into NYU with a scholarship, not sure if he has insight or even checks this site
Both versions of peoples’ experiences can be true. You can be in the resource rich group and have success. You may hear their experiences and details of their journeys (which are valid and full of self-discovery) and believe you have to do it all to have the same results. As I said earlier, if you can do it all…go for it. I don’t believe people with opportunities (energy, time, money) need to hold back in any way. That is who you are, so go for it.
You can also be in the resource limited group and have success…if you have good teachers or access to them (even through zoom etc). I would say having access to experienced teachers is really the key. It will be hard to get acceptances without this type of mentorship. And, I would give their opinion the most weight in the process. So BELIEVE what the teachers are telling you.
How can both be true? Because at the end of the day, the AUDITION is king. The faculty is looking for TALENT. Remember the faculty does this year after year. They can adjust for an instrument or even a background of no pre-college. Students GROW a lot in college. So if you are talented but a few steps behind, most teachers will know that they can catch you up in a year or so. College music is intense so students DO grow. If you are coming out of a pre-college, you had better be on your game. If not, you may be given some leeway IF THE TALENT is there. You won’t be the first student out of a more limited resource group, so a teacher who hears a more raw talent will know how to handle that.
At my D’s UG school, there were teachers with the reputation of liking certain types of students and backgrounds (usually teaching graduate students). My D made a comment like “those teachers need the great students for their (insatiable) reputation, while other teachers like to build students”. My D’s teacher, who did a lot of grad students, refused sample lessons. She wanted to hear the students for the first time in the audition. She was more interested in the sound of the voice as opposed to their background.
So again, both statements can be true…some people will benefit from their background and ability to do it all and will end up with certain teachers….and go to success. They did the process right for themselves. And, in other cases, all the background and extra stuff will just not matter…as the teacher will see the talent and be unconcerned about the background…as they know how to work with that type of talent.
So, I think the best way to get the right FIT, is present yourself exactly as you are. No apologies. If this career is going to work, you can’t go into debt, you can’t try to be part of a pre-college if it doesn’t exist…you just need to lean into what you have. And what you have sounds like some excellent professionals! Lucky you. You can get excellent mentorship and keep some dollars in your pocket.
Good luck!
I agree with everything @bridgenail said and it sounds like you already have some great teachers and programs.
I don’t think camps are necessary but they can be fun and inspirational. There are camp scholarships available if you want to look into it, offered by the camps themselves and other sources. Before her senior year our D applied to and got a summer grant from her high school alumni fund that she used to lower the cost of an expensive camp.
Thank you for taking the time to type out that response. I’m going to just let go of stressing over things we have absolutely no control over. She loves playing and she is very determined. She jumps at every opportunity locally. I think bumping her lessons to 2x per week would be a better (and less expensive option) than thousands for a summer camp.
It is reassuring to read multiple people state this can be a viable path. Thank you.
There are scholarships up to full-ride. However, before summer camp, you and your kid can talk to the youth orchestra directors, all-state students and their parents, local musicians, etc. We live quite far from any major city and the local community supports professional musicians in a very limited fashion. However, the directors in our youth orchestra are passionate. They know other people and would make introductions. We also had two great music directors in middle and high schools. Together they paved the road for my son to pursue music, and I deeply appreciate their work.
My son plays viola. He used a rental until the spring of sophomore year. Finding the right instrument was shockingly complicated to me (someone not musical at all). It took over 6 months. The final “match” came from a workshop up north. They did a sales tour to Texas during covid and someone my son’s teacher knew made the introduction. I joked that it’s much more convoluted than finding a girlfriend.
Haha! This is so true. And unlike string instruments, oboes need to be replaced much more frequently as they last on average around 7 years.
So we have been through the instrument search a couple of times already. So complicated.
I jokingly reference Harry Potter and say, “The wand chooses the wizard, Harry.”
@Mom2aphysicsgeek summer programs can be wonderful experiences. Many have scholarships. We could not afford a program either but my kid got a full tuition scholarship to a 6 week program. It helped them see what a conservatory day might be like and they met many fellow musicians, as well as teachers and professional instrumentalists and composers.
Hello! I don’t have any special advice about NYU. She does love jazz in the city, having a good experience. In high school strong student and musicial auditions and accolades lined up. NYU is somewhat confusing where she knows other
Instrument where maybe less strong candidate got in over stronger candidate and was not clear why.
Happy to entertain any specific questions and good luck!
@bridgenail What you say is correct and thank you for writing what you did. There is no magic formula, and what worked for one person might not for another and no two paths are the same. Things like summer music programs or prep programs or youth orchestra programs are a help (and I try to say why, rather than say “you have to do this”) but there is little outside having a good teacher that is a necessity. Sadly in the music world families do get inundated with thoughts like that, or get preyed upon by teachers, like telling them “you need to spend X on an instrument, and here is where you should go” (if a teacher ever says that, take it from me, find another teacher).
And by all means, yes, when looking at schools the ‘great teacher’ reputation can be complex. In the solo instrument world, it is usually based on teachers who have been great performers, either as soloists or as members of known ensembles and this is true for the wide variety of music. The thing is, that doesn’t mean they are good teachers, some of the best teachers in the violin world were not distinguished performers and some of the ‘famous teachers’ from what I have heard from ex students and my S’s impression having worked with some of them aren’t very good teachers. This is where a teacher comes in before college or other contacts, it is finding out the reputation as a teacher that is important.
We were fortunate going through this process that we had access to resources, both because of where we were located and financially but it is such a crazy world, there is this impression you need to do more. Crazy things, like kids doing lessons every day, kids who jetted off to Europe to study for the summer with X genius teacher or do prestigious programs there, kids with incredibly expensive instruments, etc, which we didn’t have the resources for and there were people giving the impression only kids able to do that would make it…and it isn’t true.
In the end it comes down to having good teachers who can advance them (and hopefully knows what music is like) and both the kids talent and more importantly, them willing and able to dedicate to the work required to become good. One thing that everyone runs into in this process is you see (or are told, which like most things these days, is dangerous) is that where a kid is in high school determines the future and that is way, way untrue.
My son ran into that, feeling like he would never catch up, that his playing wasn’t good enough, when the reality was he was fine (a lot of that wasn’t helped by his teacher, but that is another story) and it took a lot of years, even into his conservatory years and beyond, to realize that levels do vary and that for example being technically perfect is only one dimension, that teachers see the musicality in a kid, that while they see the flaws or things that need to be worked on they see the potential:)
When I mentioned things that are helpful understand that by no means is that ever “you have to do this” it is why I try to explain why it is helpful but again, in the end it is going to come down to having a good teacher and a kid doing the work, plenty of kids get into good music schools and end up with careers who didn’t do all the stuff I mention. I will add that with my son being a violinist, he never did the glamour summer programs that were sold often as being ‘the best’ and “you have to do these”, the Aspen summer program, Meadowmount, etc, it wasn’t available to us financially and for other reasons.
OMG the instrument search , it is a never ending process for musicians. Initially it is pretty easy, most people start with rental instruments (we did), and then it basically moves to a bought student instrument (in the violin world, also has to do with size of the instrument). It gets more complicated as the student advances (and here I speak of the violin, I know a little about Clarinets having played that, but it is still different). Violins it really is the wand finding the wizzard (thank you for that one, whoever said it), what works for one person doesn’t work for another, because every instrument has its own life to it so to speak (even factory student violins that have been played have different sound). My son’s high school violin, which was an old French violin that we got from a local store, had a wonderful sound but it kind of ran out of gas so to speak when my son’s playing reached a certain level. The odyssey to find a new instrument took my wife (and myself to a lesser extent) all over the NYC and surrounding area, I don’t know how many miles and months it took, checking out instruments (highly recommended, don’t just play them in the store, take them home to play them, compare them), the instrument he ended up buying (and is still playing on professionally at the moment) was bought in Philadelphia, but it wasn’t simple, there was an issue with rattling, then he wasn’t sure, kept comparing it to other instruments, before he finally bought it. So yeah, it makes dating look easy lol.
I didn’t know that about oboes, interesting. I played clarinet in school (not very good) and I never heard that about clarinets. That is kind of the opposite of violins, they get better with age. I always assumed with woodwinds that the only thing that goes are things like pads and the corks that seal the sections. I wonder if that is true of other woodwinds, too (anyone know?)
It is, @Mom2aphysicsgeek , and I hope I didn’t make it sound like “if you don’t do this, forget it”. The key is definitely a good teacher and the dedication of the kid, that is going to be what drives the audition success. I encourage people if they have access financially and location wise to take advantage of what is there, that it can help, but it is not a ‘you have to’ . One thing that may work is finding online groups/forums where professional musicians hang out, and seeing what they say. Musicians tell war stories about teachers and through their networking there is word of mouth about teachers and music programs that may be of help and there may be online resources to help with that (it won’t mean that a highly touted teacher will work with a given student, though).
With the summer festivals, a lot of them do offer scholarships and aid (though the cost of getting them there can be expensive). Having her do 2x a week lessons sounds like it could be a good thing too, that sounds like a great idea:)
I can’t speak of how NYU is today (when I went there back in the dark ages many decades ago, SOA operated very differently in terms of academics, it really was about the audition from what I remember kids telling me at the time) and NYU has changed a lot in terms of its standards. That said, I suspect that if it is like the other top academic schools with music programs (northwestern, Vanderbilt) from what I have heard through the grapevine if a student is talented they are going to be more forgiving on the academic side in terms of stats. On the other hand from what I know about music school, they will give 0 credit to high academic achievement in terms of admissions, there it will be all the audition. How much leeway they would give with the academics I don’t know. If you think about it, if you want to build a music school and its reputation, if they rigidly enforced their academic standards, gave no leeway, they likely will be throwing away a lot of talented music students because the pool of hyper academic and hyper playing ability as well is going to be a lot more limited (among other things, serious music kids as bright as most of them are IMO, don’t have the time to pursue getting the X AP classes, honors classes, and maintain a 3.8 GPA or whatever with the time music takes). So I suspect there is leeway given to talented music students on the academic side if they want to have high level music students there.
It is the very small diameter bore and huge amount of back pressure that makes oboes vulnerable to cracks.
Not true of other woodwinds.
However clarinets, and to some extent bassoons are known to lose resonance with time and while I don’t the specific time frame also need to be replaced with some frequency.
I remember his teacher explaining to me once that buying a violin is like investing in a house. It appreciates over time. And to think of oboes like buying a car. It will need to be replaced in 5-10 years if played constantly. And oboes generally do not appreciate in value.
So interesting! Flutes are definitely not like this. Preprofessional and professional level instruments last forever and maintain their value over time. It is something I would never of thought of that oboes need to be replaced!
As a parent of a kid who did do “named” summer programs, apply and see what happens. Depending on your child’s level of talent, there are various scholarships both merit and need based, and always appeal the initial scholarship offer. We were given a full ride to Interlochen and paid only about $2K out of 9K for 8 weeks at BUTI (their initial offer was for us to pay $7000 of the $9K, but we showed them Interlochen’s competing offer and that brought them way down - my kid preferred BUTI over Interlochen). There are also free programs to shoot for like NYO2 and NYO. Not everyone can afford a professional level instrument, although someday that will be needed if you continue on, but I would at least apply widely and try to make connections with peers and teachers in the summer.
Just being real here – your violinist probably won’t be getting into a top conservatory without summer programs and a quality instrument. There are millimeters between who is applying and who gets accepted in many cases, and the instrument especially can make you a less ideal candidate. In addition, you simply can’t DO everything on a student instrument.
The things you mention – youth orchestras, all-state, etc. – are the resume of those going into lower level programs. Violinists going to top programs are doing summer programs, soloing with orchestra, winning competitions, doing lots of chamber music, and not doing too much youth orchestra so that they can practice more.
I understand how challenging it can be for the average family to afford the level of preparation that is required to get into a top conservatory. Here are some of the things we did:
Look for scholarship programs. From the Top and Jack Kent Cooke is an example of a $10,000 scholarship specifically designed for pre-college students to help them purchase instruments or go to summer programs or pay for other expenses. There are others out there. There are a lot of scholarship programs for kids who are underrepresented in some way, whether due to race, parent education, or income (see Equity Arc for some of them) if that applies to you.
Apply for a violin lend. We could not afford the level of instrument my child needed either, so he was able to get a loaner instrument from a foundation. The vast majority of string players in his conservatory have loaned instruments. There are many options available, but one that often lends a bit younger is Virtu Foundation, but there are many others.
Apply to a wide range of summer programs and always apply for both financial and merit aid. My kids have been offered full scholarships every summer. They often, to my dismay, chose to go to ones where they got less scholarship, but the money is there, especially if the talent is there. My kids have received offers of over $10K for some programs.
I personally think the summer programs are critical. First off, there will likely be students who are much, much stronger than you are. This can help motivate kids, but it also gives you a sense of what reality is – sometimes people really have no idea what level students are out there. It also exposes them to top level teachers, including some who may be at the conservatories they are interested in. And finally, it gives them a taste of what life would be like at a conservatory – and trust me, you want them to know that beforehand, because some kids decide it just is not for them.
Thank you for this. My dd is only 14 and didn’t start playing until she was 8. Add a move and covid shutdown into the mix, plus one really awful teacher after our move and then 1 that constantly beat her down, it is truly amazing that she is playing at the level she is. When I read online, I feel deflated for her bc she is definitely “behind” top players who have been playing since 3, attend pre-college programs, and have parents who know what they are doing. I know nothing about music and the only reason she plays violin is bc she begged to learn how to play. For the first several yrs, she only practiced 10-20 mins per day. Her conductor told me 2 weeks ago that “she is killing it.” Her current teacher (we switched in Feb) is incredibly encouraging and tells her she is advancing quickly and has plenty of time. (I can’t even begin to describe how much she has developed as a player since Feb with the new teacher.) BUT, it is hard to keep perspective when I hear other voices saying things like if she isn’t already playing xyz concertos, she will never be able to pursue violin professionally. She is very musical, and it shows in her playing. (And her level is definitely not shabby by any stretch.)
Thank you to everyone else, as well. I have been looking at camps, but it has been a huge stressor when I have been trying to work through our budget (we have 2 dd’s getting married between now and May, too, and they have been given shoestring budgets for their weddings.) I figured there was no way that she would qualify for aid bc she is our youngest, but after reading all of these responses, we will have her go ahead and try and see what happens. If they are too expensive, we will just say no.
You have no idea how much my stress level has dropped by not thinking we had to come up with thousands of dollars we don’t have for a summer program
That is interesting, and it makes sense. I know with clarinets that the wood they use (grenata, grenada?) can crack if you aren’t careful with temperature and humidity. Buffet, the major clarinet maker, because the wood they use us a tropical hardwood, tried making a composite that used sawdust from the wood they cut, from what I hear it was an experiment that failed:)
Violins are different, unless you literally destroy them they get better with age, they open up more and develop an interesting sound over time. It is why 300+ year old violins are still out there, and violins don’t depreciate over time, most appreciate (depending on what the violin is). Anything that breaks can be fixed, cracks, the finger board can be replaced, the sound post, the bridge, the pegs. Heck I saw a vuillaume (a 19th century violin, very valuable as a collectors item as well as playing) that looked like matchsticks that was up for auction and would be restored.