Thanks! We’re out-of-state and strings.
SFCM released acceptances today! Daughter has been accepted viola BM! 35K Merit
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congrats! thanks for sharing but none for our student yet! maybe soon!
take that back! it just came through and it’s so nice they include the scholarship offer in it!! Woo hoo!!
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It is a tiny program, it is a scant handful of students at any time and isn’t easy to coordinate from what I can tell.
It varies from studio to studio and school to school, but the general process is
1)Student applies, in many schools you list teachers in order of preference.
2)Student auditions. Teachers on panel evaluate what the students level is, write notes on that level and also if they think they might be interested in teaching them.
3)The audition panelists go over the audition students later to decide if they are at an acceptable level.
4)Admissions then looks to see if the kid has listed teachers. If they have, they talk to the teachers, and try and get them placed based on the kids priority.’
5)If the kid doesn’t have a list, they see if any teachers indicated interest, and work that part of the process. If no teacher expressed interest, the school will either reject them, or will put them on wait list, to give the kid a chance to talk to other teachers there (and obviously, this is a generic process; every school is different)
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That sounds about right. I wonder if they spend a minute or two between students to discuss right after audition.
This has been talked about a lot, does going to a prestigious program make a difference, is it better to put yourself in debt to go to program Y instead of not having debt to go to Z. Some people arguing having the prestigious program on your cv will make a big difference (it is kind of like the arguments about academic diplomas and schools), and my answer would be no. Note I am not talking about the ability to get into the top ranked program, I am talking going there.
In the example given I would say option 2 all the way. It is your kids first choice, with an accomplished person, and no debt? To me, slam dunk.
One of the problems is people have this notion you come out with an UG degree and immediately are on a career track. One of the reasons the ProgramZ vs Program Y debate is misleading is that (at least in classical music, vocal and instrumental), these days further study is almost de rigeur. If the kid is good enough, they can graduate and move to a grad/artists diploma program at the more prestigious school, hopefully again with no debt. Yes, there are arguments for more prestigious schools, being around other high level students, getting to know faculty and networking, mentorship, and while all that is true, to go into debt to do it, quite frankly, is foolish when you have more affordable options at school that are otherwise strong.
The bromide about music/arts being hard to make a living has been so thrown out there, people nod their heads, but then kind of forget it, or say “well, my kid is so good, ti won’t matter, they got into Juilliard”. I heard something like this on a financial advice pod cast, when a woman wrote in her son was (I think) a tubist, and from the description sounded like he got into NEC. She was asking if her son should take out loans to pay for it (I think she said total cost would be at the time 150k) or take out a home equity loan to pay for it. The host questioned that, and asked why she would think that was a good deal? She said well, yes, it would be expensive, but because he got into the school, he should be able to get a well paying orchestra job to pay for it. The host needless to say wasn’t enthusiastic…
It isn’t just difficult, even for the talented of the talented it isn’t an easy path. Yes, you read about the whiz horn player who gets into a major orchestra like Philadelphia as principal horn before they graduate, but that is literally a unicorn. The reality is it is going to be a long slog, it is going to be grad/post grad programs, constant auditions (if looking for an orchestra job), and they will have that debt sitting on them, and they will have to work somehow to pay them while trying to find a way into a position. Honestly debt is a like a boat anchor on a music career because having to feed that debt takes away from the process required to make it in music IMO/IME.
To give you an idea, my son is part of a string quartet that has won major awards, has an established performing career where they are routinely performing and are playing in series with the top groups. 3 of the members are 30+, one is in their mid 20’s. They formed in 2018 at the school they were attending as eithe grad or ug students.
But financially it is still a hodge podge. They are independent now, but still, if they had to worry about huge debt none of them could do it. They also have had residencies that have helped pay for things like housing and health insurance that has helped.
The cost has to be a significant factor in decisions, whether the family can afford it or whether it means going to another program that is affordable, debt has to be minimized if not eliminated, it will work against the very thing you are trying to do. Kids run into this with academic degrees of course, but in music debt represents a burden that can kill a career before it even begins.
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you son was smart to do that. I don’t know what area your son is in in music, it all depends in terms of pestige and such. In classical music there are schools that sell that prestige factor and honestly to me it is oversold. Yes, being around other talented musicians and making friends and meeting ppl in master classes and the like is valuable. If you are going into something like music production, I could see being at a program as USC or UCLA could have a big deal of influence trying to get hired. But in classical music the idea that having Juilliard on your CV if you are planning to be a musician is gold is , to say the least, oversold. It doesn’t mean there aren’t benefits, but in the world of ‘making it’, it isn’t the solid gold people think it is. Networking is important of course, and I’ll reiterate something people say time and again and is true, music is a small world and your reputation can work for you or against you. It is about building connections and your own reputation, you piss off the wrong people and it can hurt you. Likewise, by being easy to work with, not a diva, willing to do favors, it can take you a long way.
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What if grandma can pay for it? Would you still think it a good value to go to a top conservatory? What I mean by this, is the money grandma will give the kid being well spent to fund a big name school? I am wondering if that money grandma gives could help support kid after graduation when kid is trying to make it in the world, rather than go to a big name school. This, I fear, is the dilemma we will face.
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That is a valid question as well. One of the things that needs to be done with music as a career is look at the long picture. The reality is this isn’t like studying engineering in college then getting a job. It takes a while to find that path, and the support system needs to be there well beyond school (it isn’t just financial, it is also emotional too).
I think the answer is that looking long term then not spending grandmas money at school x alone might be a good thing, think of it as a kind of endowment whose goal is to support the process all along. It is complicated of course, you can argue there wouldn’t be a future career unless the kid goes to school Y, but honestly I don’t think that is reality. Where to apply resources is so fraught with music, with the private lessons and youth orchestras and summer programs, what is the best ROI is not always easy to see.
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Great discussions. Thank you! I’ve been asking myself the same questions all the time. Would I pay for Juilliard for the prestige? Yes, I would. Would I be very disappointed or sad if he didn’t get in? Yes, for a short while, but not for too long. All roads lead to Rome. In performance art, the stage performance ultimately speaks for itself. That moment on stage requires many years of training, a ton of emotional, social, and financial support, and a high level of sustained passion. When you watch a great performance, the artist could come from any background. This is what my son tells me all the time. I think I’m starting to let go of the ‘prestige’ halo. That said, I still want him to try again, lol. I still feel his future path could be easier if he had it. I think he has many chances to try it, but I should not be overly concerned or stressed with the outcome. Our support and love remains the same. His full-ride education as UG put us in a very strong position to provide continued support financially, which then leads to the emotional stability for him and for us. BTW, my younger son is also a quite accomplished musician at the NYO level, but I have a strong sense of relief when he decided not to be a professional musician and pursue more “practical” interests that would land him a regular job. I feel we could afford to support one full-time musician financially and emotionally.
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The thing about a school like Juilliard or Curtis is that the prestige side isn’t as powerful IMO as people think, that in the music world that degree, while an entry point into the music world because they are so competitive to get into and the teaching is up there, the name doesn’t buy as much as people think. There is truth to schools acting as feeders to things, for example the Philadelphia Orchestra is full of Curtis alumni. Some programs like the Marlborough music festival tended to be top heavy with Curtis students and alumni, and there other instances of this.
But to bank on that prestige is also IMO a fool’s errand, because it is trying to take the specific and make it broad (and yes, schools do market themselves like that, it is why the head of admissions could have the brass to scold parents at an info session worried about the cost and taking out loans/lack of financial aid and tell them "this is Juilliard, take out the loans and don’t complain’…and that is not second hand, I was there when it was said).
It is what makes this so difficult because music education is so darn expensive, requires significant resources and time, then getting established takes more resources, it is the reality. Put it this way, A kid could go to a public school, do well, go to a state school for UG pre med , then go to medical school and become a doctor. Obviouslly med school is crazy expensive, but before that the kid had a low cost path to get there. Getting into a good music school on the other hand requires expensive lessons and programs before college, there already is significant expense. Yes, there are state music schools like Indiana Jacobs or U Mich where if you are in state, the cost may not be prohibitive, but most private music schools are really, really expensive and aren’t necessarily known for being generous with aid (a 35k merit award sounds ground, but if the school costs 90k a year…).
The reality is music is some of the most cost intensive training out there for some of the lowest yields, pure and simple. It requires resources to get into a good music program, the programs themselves are expensive, then you face grad school and artists diploma programs (that at least IME tend to be more generous with aid if not free, though then you still have to live), then you are trying to make it, whether auditioning for orchestras, auditioning for operas or music series, bulding an ensemble and trying to make it into that world. In the end things like talent, preparation/being taught well, internalizing the love to keep going forward, creativeness, are going to mean a lot more than the name of where you went. Networking of course is real, and if you are a Juilliard alum and a friend you went to school with might pass opportunities on to you, if you are a composer a teacher might give your name to someone looking to commission, and it should play into the decision making. But if you are going to go 200k into debt to go to Juilliard banking on the prestige being worth it alone, it isn’t. Lot of kids, especially a lot of the foreign students believe that prestige means a lot, when it doesn’t work that way.
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That was our impression as well.
You are spot on with regards to a 35K merit not even coming close to being affordable with regards to these private conservatories. This is going to be our dilemma. She worked her butt off in school to get straight A’s and these conservatories dont really care about grades. There are a few music schools she has applued to that are connected to a University where academic merit may help. I am hoping that is the case, but unfortunately it usually all washes out in the end to be very similar. What I mean is say the University gives her academic scholarship and the music dept had earmarked a certain amount then the music department finds out how much academic scholarship awarded and reduces their amount.
Am I wrong that these schools know how much FAFSA says you can pay (which is absolutely absurd because we CAN NOT pay that amount…our assests are in real-estate = tied up $) and bring in merit so the outcome is essentially what FAFSA says you can pay? I my case so far that is what it looks like to me.
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The cost does not stop at college tuition. Even if graduate program is funded, there are summer festivals tuition and audition travels/lodging down the road. Each piece may not seem too big but they do add up.
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Would I pay full freight at a school like Juilliard with what I know now…probably not. Because the dirty little secret is: the unicorn and top talent will NOT be paying full freight! Your kid may find out they are funding their roommates education. Top talent is NOT paying full freight…and they get into Juilliard…and go on to success…while you go into debt, and struggle due to that debt.
My D got $0 in grad school from a prestigious conservatory. She was like “heck no”. All students talk (after a few drinks) about their awards (maybe exaggerate a little) and this can be a real blow to confidence. Some kids become sour grapes over the fact that their classmates have nearly full tuition as they foot a high bill.
My D interpreted her admission as: sure you are “good enough” to pay for the really talented kids. She declined that offer. Took the near full tuition offer at a lesser school…and figured she’d find a way to be a performer without the prestigious grad school name. It has worked so far.
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My information is a bit old…still we did not qualify for any financial aid…and my D’s total cost after academic/music merit for UG studies (grad was different) all came out…strangely…similar. I think that the spread was maybe $7000 difference per year…with one less selective school being the lowest and one LAC being the highest (probs could have negotiated it down a bit). A few schools were only a few thousand different a year. I don’t know if they have access to the FAFSA…but they seem to be experts at their job…and know what a budding vocalist is going to be offered at different institutions…so why offer more? Do remember that you can negotiate…and while that doesn’t produce big dollars usually it can help a little or enough to make a difference in some cases.
Based on my experience and others I have seen year after year here, I have always said that if you want a ballpark cost you should expect in-state tuition plus a premium of $5000 to $10000 per year. Of course when you put a general expectation out there, many people will fall outside it. If you are a national merit scholar, it will differ. If you have high talent and many awards, again that could mean you get more. Some schools may be less selective and looking for talent. And of course, financial aid can really mix things up. But for a talented kid (not a unicorn) with very good grades (but not stellar) applying to some selective music schools, you can definitely get accepted (that’s your win)…but will most likely being paying some notable tuition for it.
I remember long ago being naive enough to think…my D is really pretty talented (according to others too)…maybe she’ll get a full ride…lol…silly me. If only she had been a rocket scientist too…
Edit: I remember my “psychology” of…well instate plus a “reasonable” premium for this amazing music school…I guess that’s a deal…whereas if it was instate plus $20,000…I may have balked. Have always wondered about that…
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I feel the same about “washing out” to be the same financial award. I’ve seen many, many instances of kids in our instrument over the past couple years ending up being awarded whatever amount needed to bring the total tuition + room/board to be about $45-55K at private conservatories or college/conservatory type institutions. The schools know what FAFSA says (not that FAFSA is accurate at all for what middle/upper middle class can pay) and it’s frustrating that many of these colleges base “merit” on both merit and need. As far as a true top performer potentially getting more money, well, our results aren’t out yet so that remains to be seen, but I’m very interested to see if it’s true. We will choose whichever college gives us the best financial offer.
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We will to! Thankfully my daughter will be happy to go to any of her top 4 schools. One of them will hopefully come through financially, because SFCM didn’t. When we saw 35K we were thrilled, until we crunched the numbers. She applied to all very expensive high $ schools because those schools had the best teachers that she liked. Wish we had thought this out a bit better. But my D didnt want to go to a state school here because really there was none that appealed to her. We had no instate option, but most conservatories dont take that into consideration