CNN Presents: The Gap btwn black and white students

Parent Cafe
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<p>Anyone catch this program last night? One of the best things I’ve seen on CNN in a while. It was trying to explain why even 50 years after Brown v. Board of Education the gap between black and white students is still so significant. </p>

<p>They followed a group of students from Shaker Heights, an affluent suburb of Cleveland (I believe). Although 50% of the kids are black, they usually populate the basic “college prep” classes while the whites stick to the honors classes. At first they tried to explain the gap in the most obvious way. Blacks are poorer, therefore they are worse students. However, even the blacks with parents making over $100,000 still had much lower SATs than the middle class white students. Obviously, parental education and income levels aren’t the only things keeping black students back. Heck, asian immigrants whose parents work in fast food restaurants still get 1500s.</p>

<p>Then the documentary got to the real issue. The culture of black America. They mentioned how Asians view education as the key to everything. This is the complete opposite of what most blacks view as important. CNN showed a clip of Jay-Z’s “Big Pimpin” video and then talked about how most high schools blacks want to be rappers or athletes. Blacks who care about their academics are often viewed as “sellouts” or “acting white”.</p>

<p>Without ever mentioning it, this documentary explains why AA is necessary. Because white, jewish, and asian cultures view education as the key to the future, their children start off with an innate advantage. Unless large numbers of URM students continue to attend and thrive at great universities, the next generation of blacks will never know their full potential. Our culture has enough Michael Jordans and 50 Cents, it’s time for more Cornell Wests and Robert Johnsons.</p>

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<p>Ouch! MJ and 50 cents in the same sentence?? That hurts. I wish you’d edit that.</p>

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<p>Yeah I actually thought that 50 Cent was an extreme example but I’m just naming two of the most famous people in their respective industries. If 50 Cent bothers you, replace him with any other rich rapper. I’m not criticizing him or Jordan, I’m just saying its time blacks realize they can be more than entertainers. </p>

<p>These two names also work because even though MJ and 50 Cent are about as different as possible, millions of African-Americans still aspire to follow in their footsteps mostly because they’re rich.</p>

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<p>Your conclusion that what a family (or culture) values determines academic performance is absolutely correct. Your suggestion that affirmative action will somehow correct the cultural deficits of african americans is completely wrong. We have had academic preference for african american students for at least 50 years (a generator or two) and yet african americans remain at the bottom of academic success. Maybe it is time to advance to a merit based system for academic admission. If that means 50% of a college’s student body is asian, so be it. Let them serve as the example for every one else.</p>

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<p>“then talked about how most high schools blacks want to be rappers or athletes”</p>

<p>If this is what the report noted, it’s certainly not true. Most HS blacks don’t want to be rappers or athletes. CNN said this? </p>

<p>I’m not going to repeat the details about the class system in the black community. I suspect this report was discussion the lowest of the class systems. </p>

<p>If blacks wanted to only be rappers and athletes, we wouldn’t have struggled to create our own colleges when whites wouldn’t let us attend theirs…and those colleges wouldn’t be continuing to educated today - as they are. </p>

<p>Seems like CNN may have trivialized the issues. For many African Americans who value education and have family histories of generations of college educated folks, HBCUs are the prize (Spelman, Morehouse, Howard, Hampton)…generations and generations of black doctors, lawyers, dentists, professors, etc have come out of these schools. Thus, going to one of these schools is viewed as the crowing achievement. </p>

<p>Sure, there are tons of blacks students who don’t care about college…as here are tons of white students who don’t care about college. </p>

<p>Bottom line, many achieving blacks don’t feel the need for a 1500 SAT - they can get into their top schools (HBCUs) with a 1200. They can get their prized education with a lower score and still achieve the success, wealth, power and happiness of their white counterparts who took the test 3X, hired a tutor, studied at the feet of Xiggi and got the 1500. Did CNN touch on any of that? I bet they don’t have a clue. It’s easier to focus on 50 Cent and convince whites and Asians that blacks are actually trying to catch up on the SAT and follow the program as it has been laid out for us, now that we’ve been finally allowed to leave the starting block in the popular race - gee, thanks. Some blacks are trying to win this popular race. Many aren’t. Ask CNN this: when blacks achieve in professional fields, what got them there? </p>

<p>Many years ago blacks were told they couldn’t live equally in the white world, no matter how much they achieved. As such, blacks created their own world and platforms for success…and THAT is where many blacks continue to focus…especially those with longstanding success going back many generations. </p>

<p>Waving the SAT scores of black students whose parents earn $100,000 or more and saying they aren’t as high as whites or asians is an interesting way of looking at it - but CNN seems to have failed to close the loop.</p>

<p>When these black students are prepped and coached, they score on par with white and asian students. So, why aren’t they prepped and coached? Because their fall black plan is so attractive and got their dad and grandpop their medical degrees - and their house in the Hamptons -and their summers on Martha’s Vineyard - and life was pretty good - so what’s the problem, again?</p>

<p>Again, I’m going back to the class system. Let’s not genralize about blacks. There are several issues at play - and I think CNN may have mixed them all together. The problem isn’t the lower scoring SATers…it’s the kids who didn’t take the SAT at all - and the kids who never heard of the SAT.</p>

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<p>here is the transcript from the program:</p>

<p><a href=“CNN.com - Transcripts”>CNN.com - Transcripts;

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<p>I find your posts offensive, e550. Michael Jordon is not an ‘entertainer’. He is one of the greatest athletes in the nation. He won a full scholarship to UNC and attended the university for two years.</p>

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<p>Cheers, is that all that offended you about e550’s post? </p>

<p>"I’m just saying its time blacks realize they can be more than entertainers. "</p>

<p>The MJ comments is the least of it, IMHO. Thanks for the link Sybbie. I suspect this CC version of the recap has a bit of a hater’s “spin” to it.</p>

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<p>"But those who think getting good grades means they’re acting white, rap music’s gangstas and thugs offer an alternative to be authentically black.</p>

<p>JOCK WILLIAMS, SHAKER HEIGHTS SENIOR: A lot of black students, we want to be athletes and rappers because we only see that sweet part. We’re seeing the cars, the houses, the girls, the money, the clothes. We’re seeing all that good stuff."</p>

<p>I overexaggerated with the word most, “a lot”.</p>

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<p>Yeah, everyone please check out the transcript. I did my best to recall this program from my memory, of course my recap emphasizes the parts I focused on. </p>

<p>Michael Jordan is one of my favorite people. He’s as wholesome as a person you can find, white or black. I have nothing against athletes or even rappers. If I had the ability to rap, I’d definitely attempt to become a rapper.</p>

<p>Cheers how is MJ not an entertainer? You said it yourself, he’s an athlete. Athletes are paid to entertain people. I’m happy for him and like another MJ, Magic Johnson, he has branced out into the business world.</p>

<p>Of course millions of African Americans are doctors, lawyers and other proffessionals. However, many of the most famous blacks are entertainers (the word entertainer shouldnt have any connotation,it’s just a job) so millions hope to strike it rich by perfecting their jump shot or rap flow. </p>

<p>I find it pretty rude for a grown mother to be calling me a hater. What am I hating on? Bill Cosby (another entertainer I have incredible respect for) brought this up last year and received flack for his opinions. You can deny it, but there definitely is a gap and it cant be explained by blacks having lower SAT scores b/c they are content with the 1200s that get them into their prospective schools.</p>

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<p>I admit I don’t see any of this going on…but I’m sure it does. After reading some of the transcript, seems like some of the problem is with role modeling. The black community is very segregated - with classes of blacks not interacting. </p>

<p>I do think blacks could learn much from Jewish role models and I’ve used their guidance to model much of what I have done with my own children. I believe, in general, many of the Asians are overboard and don’t offer enough balance - so I wouldn’t suggest that anyone emulate that. I guess it all depends on what you are trying to achieve.</p>

<p>“However, Many of the most famous blacks are entertainers”…many of the most famous people, in general, are entertainers - black and white. If you can’t name famous blacks who aren’t entertainers, that’s a different problem…and not related to the attempts to progress from the black community. </p>

<p>e550, you spun that recap with some very gross generalizations and it was done in a very hateful manner, IMHO. After reading the transcript, I can see where you inflated the issues. Why, I am not sue. The issue was interesting and powerful enough without the added splashes of color and misrepresentations.</p>

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<p>Maybe it is time to advance to a merit based system for academic admission. If that means 50% of a college’s student body is asian, so be it. Let them serve as the example for every one else.</p>

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<p>Years of rote learning does not mean that one has acquired a good education. I would also like to know why this report decided to highlight a school with only a 2 year track record instead of looking at schools that have more sustaind records of achievement year over year (as those schools would be located in districts 2, 26 and 5 mott haven</p>

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<p>Interesting Sybbie. There has to be a middle ground between the African Americans and the Asians. Neither group seems to have found a successful balance. Again, I believe the Jewish families have nailed it…the balance (and they’ve been enslaved). If only more African Americans would learn to trust the Jews enough to begin to emulate them - and, they’ve proven trustworthy, IMHO.</p>

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<p>I haven’t had time to read the article, but I think anytime someone makes gross generalizations about any group, the conversation is off to a bad start. I can’t believe all asians think and act the same way, nor do I believe that all African-Americans or any other ethnic group participate in “group think” either.</p>

<p>When someone says “Asian”, what does that mean? Chinese, Japanese, Vietnames, Indian, Pakistani or what? What about “Black”? Does that mean people whose ancestors were slaves or those who have recently immigrated from Jamaica or another non-African country? I really don’t think it’s helpful to speak of people as if there is no individuality.</p>

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<p>e550, get a grip on reality. Athletes are not primarily entertainers. Do you know any top athletes? If you did, you might understand the difference between MJ and Bill Cosby and 50 cents.</p>

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<p>This article was offered by another poster in one of our prior discussions on this topic. It is an interview of a stanford professor as an explanation for the lower scores of african americans on the SAT. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/interviews/steele.html[/url]”>http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/interviews/steele.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And quotes from the article on this:</p>

<p>Q. “Explain it in terms of what it means to a black kid growing up in America. Why this and why did you use the word threat? What is it?”</p>

<p>(Steele) "By the term “stereotype threat” what we have in mind is simply being in a situation where a negative stereotype about your group could apply. As soon as that’s the case, you know that you could be judged in terms of that stereotype or treated in terms of it or you might inadvertently do something that would confirm the stereotype.</p>

<p>And if you care very much about doing well in that situation, the prospect of being treated stereotypically there is going to be upsetting and disturbing to you. And if you’re a member of a group whose intellectual abilities are negatively stereotyped, this threat might occur. </p>

<p>That negative stereotype will be applicable to you right in the middle of an important standardized test. And our general reasoning was that this threat, this prospect of confirming a stereotype or of being seen that way would be distracting enough, upsetting enough, to undermine a person’s performance right there in the middle of a test. …</p>

<p>Q. "It sounds like what you were saying was that it was the black students who considered themselves good students who actually are affected the most? Did that surprise you? "</p>

<p>Steele "That is the thing our research has revealed to us, something that we really didn’t think of when we went into this. It has become vividly clear to us and other people who do this research that the effects of the stereotype are poignantly most powerful for the students who are the strongest and the most motivated. </p>

<p>For them, functioning at the frontier of their skills with this prospect of being seen, stereotypically, [to be] over their heads, they’re the ones who experience a disruption and so forth.
… That it’s the academic vanguard of the group as opposed to the rear guard of the group that is experiencing the threat we’re talking about. And experiencing that threat can be thought of as having to pay a sort of pioneer tax: the woman who is really advanced in math, the black student who is really doing well and is sort of in a top flight, high pressure college or graduate program or professional program or something. That person, because they’re having to deal with this threat and the prospect of it is paying a certain tax to be there that other students are not having to pay. "</p>

<p>And this from yet another poster:
“Ogbu (1986) reported an interesting fact: Among caste-like minorities in industrial and nonindustrial nations throughout the world (e.g., the Maoris of New Zealand, the Baruku of Japan, the Harijans of Indian, the Oriental Jews of Israel, and the West Indians of Great Britain), there exists the same 15-point IQ gap between them and the nonstigmatized members of their society as exists between Black and White Americans. These groups also suffer poorer school performance, higher dropout rates, and related behavior problems. Moreover, the gaps appear even when the stigmatized and the nonstigmatized are of the same race, as in the case of the Baraku and other Japanese. What these groups share that is capable of explaining their deficits is a caste-like status that, through stereotypes in their societies, stigmatizes their intellectual abilities – sowing the seeds, I suggest, of their school dis-identification [underperformance].”</p>

<p>Seems possible to me.</p>

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<p>The opinions on black aspirations (sports-rap) were presented by black academics–not CNN and students at Shaker…</p>

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<p>"“Ogbu (1986) reported an interesting fact: Among caste-like minorities in industrial and nonindustrial nations throughout the world (e.g., the Maoris of New Zealand, the Baruku of Japan, the Harijans of Indian, the Oriental Jews of Israel, and the West Indians of Great Britain), there exists the same 15-point IQ gap between them and the nonstigmatized members of their society as exists between Black and White Americans. These groups also suffer poorer school performance, higher dropout rates, and related behavior problems. Moreover, the gaps appear even when the stigmatized and the nonstigmatized are of the same race, as in the case of the Baraku and other Japanese. What these groups share that is capable of explaining their deficits is a caste-like status that, through stereotypes in their societies, stigmatizes their intellectual abilities – sowing the seeds, I suggest, of their school dis-identification [underperformance].”</p>

<p>This is exactly on point. And we know from other subcultures in those rare cases where castes have “risen” what it requires - basically, not only affirmative action, but affirmative “results” (the holding of places at the end of the educational chain, in the form of employment), or the expectation of results based on actual experience of them, for three generations. (There are actual case studies of this among backward castes in Kerala, which are the ones I know; my colleague David Willis at Soai University in Kobe, Japan, has been studying mobility among bottom caste groups in the Pacific Region for the past 30 years, and comes to similar conclusions.)</p>

<p>Pointing to the status, educational or otherwise, of African-American families earning more than $100k a year as illustrative is like pointing to Harvard legacies to understand what is going on in American education. Now, however, if you want to look at educational status of AA families who live in AA communities where their families have earned $100k (or the equivalent) for the past 3 generations, you are likely to find something very different. But I expect you’ll be hunting for such a community for a very long time (if you do, I expect you’ll find them among Morehouse/Spellman legacy families - virtually the only place in American society where the 3 generations are even theoretically possible.)</p>

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<p>Mini, agree. The $100k a year income seems a little off base. I know too many people without any college experiene who earn more than $100k for that to be a valid point of demarcation. A good union job with lots of overtime = $100k+.</p>

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<p>I know at least a few dozen AA American families with two generations of higher education/upper middle class status. Their educational values are similar to mine. (My values assume grad school as a given but not 15 hour Asian-style school days). Their AA children do not aspire to be rappers or ‘entertainers’.</p>