That’s a whole additional thread! In my town there are many amateur performances that FAR outshine many “professional” productions at equity houses and some of the tours… well don’t get me started. But not all would agree with me. There are many really talented people out there, who for whatever reason (sanity perhaps ;)) decide not to make it their profession. Same with kids. They chose to go the state school nonaudition route – for various reasons.
Its about who stands out to the auditors. And it might not even have all that much to do with “talent” in some cases.
As to the most recent posts, I do believe there are some college applicants who really stand out, but I also believe that number exceeds the number that a single program can admit. So, I do believe, a rather small MT program such as at CMU (about 12 freshmen) could fill their class 4 times over with an equal level of talent. There likely are 48 who audition there who meet their criteria for selection but they cannot take them all. The year my D applied, they only took 3 to 4 girls for MT. I don’t believe for a second that nobody else were on the level of those 3 or 4 girls. After all, some equally talented kids landed at other tippy top programs such as UMichigan, for example. And highly selective colleges that are not for MT, such as Harvard, WILL tell you that they could fill their class a second time with an equally strong class as the one they admit. So, the comment about CMU makes very solid sense to me! Yes, there is a cream of the crop, but that cream that stands out and rises to the top, still is a larger number than a single program can admit. There are kids rejected at top programs (not referring to ALL who are denied) who are equally qualified and talented as those admitted. With acceptance rates in the single digits at competitive MT programs, there is no way that the only qualified applicants are the ones accepted to a particular program. But yes, there are kids who really stand out and there is a wide range of talent who are applying to BFA in MT programs. They are not all equally talented.
Given that CMU accepts only 12 kids into their musical theater program, I have no doubt at all that they could fill their class “four times over” with equally talented kids. I mean, they have thousands of kids from all over the country auditioning, and their incoming class is tiny. “Four times over” would still mean accepting fewer than 50 kids out of thousands who audition.
EDIT: And I just saw the above post from soozievt, who said it far better than I!
So it does beg the question again: if 4 (or more) are equally talented, how the heck do they decide? Does knowing the kid help? Hurt? Do they secretly put all the names in a hat and pick?
@halflokum, Can’t know for sure which auditors are in the rooms on which days at which locations, as it changes throughout the audition season. But I have been told that the following are decision makers or auditors or score at the auditions or watch videos and have influence at the very least, or are final decision makers. Each school is different. But it is logical that the HEAD of a program is going to have say so about who is accepted. Others may have varying degrees of making the decision.
Someone asked, so here is what I was able to determine as best I can.
Of those who are offering college audition coaching/advice/feedback for a fee on Stagelighter and also have a presence in the audition/acceptance process: ( you may find it unsettling as does @alwaysamom)
Zeva Barzell, Head of MT, PP
Aubrey Berg, Head of MT, CCM
Greg Daniels, head of Dance B-W
Jonathan Flom, Director Shenandoah Conserv
Joel Fink, Director, CCPA, Roosevelt
Kaitiln Hopkins, head of MT TSU
Gary Kline, Assist Head of MT, CMU
Lyn Koenning, Head of MT, UTexas
Cary Libkin, chair MT at PSU
Mark Madama, Assoc Prof, MT, U Mich
Jean McDaniel Lickson, Director of Acting, FSU
Michael McElroy, Head of voice at New School/Tisch/NYU
Catherine McNeela, head of MT at Elon
Kenneth Noel Mitchell, head of Acting/New School/Tisch/NYU
Amy Rogers, director MT, Pace
William Wesbrooks, director of Voice/ Steihnardt/NYU
I am still fascinated by the advertisement to pay to get coaching for the prescreen on getacceptd and exactly how that works. Maybe different with each college auditors? Has anyone done that?
@Notmath1, kudos for your research and thanks for sharing it. In a practical sense though, I know that the heads at Tisch listed above are most certainly not at every MT audition and unless something has changed, they don’t videotape the auditions. Both of these teachers have a heavy teaching load that wouldn’t mesh with being at every audition. Fair to expect they are at some of the on campus auditions and possibly some of the unifides but not all. I know one of them was at my daughter’s on campus audition, but the other was not.
Your question about Stagelighter is an interesting one. I didn’t read the website in a way that suggests the feedback you would get from any one of these teachers/experts as having anything to do with feedback for their specific program. I don’t think any of them would touch that with a 10 foot pole as they would understand the conflict of interest. I think their credentials simply include the schools that they teach at and are listed for that reason. I know the two from Tisch are both heavily involved giving coaching and feedback at the Jimmy Awards too. Neither are strangers to working with high school aged hopefuls nor to giving honest and unbiased feedback. Both are exceptional teachers so I certainly get the value in paying for something like that as one is shaping their material for auditions.
I didn’t read the website in a way that suggests the feedback you would get from any one of these teachers/experts as having anything to do with feedback for their specific program.
@halflokum, just so you know, this is one of the testimonials on Stagelighter from a satisfied McElroy student,
“Your list of songs for me to try in the future was by favorite part of the feedback. I have already bought and learned “On the Other Side of the Tracks” and will be using it, along with either “Think of Me” or “Unusual Way” (I love Nine, by the way) for my NYU audition.”
Can someone else who has listened to Brent Wagner’s parent talks at MPulse tell me if I am imagining this. I think I remember him specifically saying that he can always recognize the kids who have worked with audition coaches, and will always prefer the students who haven’t. This was quite a few years ago, so his position on this may have changed since then. Has anyone else heard him say this, and/or are there other department heads who feel the same way?
I find the trend towards audition coaching interesting (our D didn’t have any beyond her excellent voice teacher) in light of the taboo on performing material you’ve done in a show, with the thought that you would have been over-directed on such material. Isn’t the same true if you’ve worked with an audition coach on specific material? Isn’t the whole idea of auditions to show people who YOU are, and the choices YOU make about material and delivery?
@Notmath1, my wording wasn’t the best. I didn’t think you were suggesting the feedback from Starlighter was specific to what a specific college program is looking for. I was speaking more in general terms that because I don’t think it is, I think this service is pretty cool if you can afford it. The list of experts who contribute to Starlighter is very impressive. Specific to the two NYU teachers, I have a closer understanding of how they work because both teach my daughter right now. I can only imagine they would provide really valuable feedback because they are both brilliant teachers as well as artists. But I doubt that sucking up to them in a testimonial, even if nothing more than genuine enthusiasm, will matter a lick when it comes to admission.
@calliene, yes Gary Kline of CMU said that at NYC Unifieds when we were there: that they could fill their class 4 times over with the talented kids they saw during audition season. And frankly, I was not surprised. And I believe it was CMU (someone correct me) who said right on their website 2 years ago that they would prefer their applicants NOT to be coached. Not sure if that statement is still there. But, with regards to filling a class, seems to me that thinking a school has the perfect 12 (or however many) kids out there to fill their class, and they never have dilemmas, hard decisions, or second thoughts, is akin to saying everyone has one soul mate in this world of 7+ billion people, and we magically find that person. Schools make mistakes. I’m sure there are some kids that they really really want for whatever reason (talent, type, etc.), but there are other kids that they struggle with…should we take kid A or kid B? I think it’s naive to think that doesn’t happen. SOMETHING makes them choose one kid over another. We may not know what that something is, but it is entirely possible that knowing a kid well through coaching could sway a decision EITHER WAY.
@MomCares - that is not true about Brent Wagner. He works with many of the most well-known coaches giving master classes, etc… Our D worked with MaryAnna Dennard and I know each of the last several years quite a few of the Moo Crew students have been accepted to Michigan. And I know he has taken a number of MTCA kids as well. I’m sure Michigan has kids now attending who were coached by others too. And he is not alone. As has been mentioned before, the heads of many of these programs, as well as some of their other faculty, work with college audition coaches all of the time. It is quite commonplace.
If a coach is doing their job, they are helping a a student present the best them that they can. They are not trying to turn these kids into something that they are not. I was amazed at my Ds group how different each of them was, how differently each of them dressed and how different the material they auditioned with was. Moo and her song coach truly found pieces for each that really showcased them, their talents and personality. Not being from a theatre background or having people knowledgable about college MT programs in our area, a coach was absolutely the right thing for us to do. We would have never been able to pick out songs and monologues, and cut them down, by ourselves.
No matter how you meet these college professors, I think all of them approach the college audition process with the utmost integrity. They are truly looking for kids who best fit their program and its needs. And they choose those that fit that need whether they had a coach or not. I really don’t think it matters to them.
Yes, @monkey13, you are right. I had forgotten about that. CMU’s website did say that they preferred their applicants not be coached, which was crazy because several of their faculty were out there coaching.
Would that be sort of like when Barbara said at CMU auditions “it does’nt matter if you get asked to perform for a 2nd person” (meaning her) when everyone knows it does matter. Do schools SAY they don’t want kids who have been coached, or do they MEAN it? And is there a difference between coaching and feedback? We did not use a coach. My D had a private voice teacher (whom we were obviously paying) but the rest came from her PA school. Her teachers provided monologues to chose from, discussed plays in context, listened to her develop her monologues, and provided suggestions and guidance on schools. So D was not “coached”, but she was prepared. We were lucky b/c all that was available. If it wasn’t- we would have been looking for someplace to GET it.
@toowonderful what your daughter did to “prepare” with a PA school sounds precisely what my daughter does when she meets with her “coaches” via Skype. Kids do get input on their audition pieces from a variety of sources. It all helps them become better prepared. I honestly don’t think it matters the source, an English teacher, a college prof., voice teacher, Mary Anna Dennard, MTCA (whole menu of Broadway professionals there). It all prepares them for the audition, not just for college, but beyond.
I was present at “the Brent Wagner talk” in recent year following MPulse. He said Nothing Whatsoever about coaches. Brent Wagner does hold workshops throughout the country, often at Performing Arts schools/conservatories. He gives critiques. So does Mark Madama. So does Barbara at CMU, who I heard comment that she likes the monologues Moo choses for her students. (That does not mean she doesnt like monologues chosen by the student herself). So does Gary Klein, who is the artistic director for ArtsBridge. ArtsBridge brings in as many different MT/Acting Prof’s as possible to give students a preview. In previous years this has included Otterbein, UCLA, Syracuse, Emerson, NYU, Boco, Just About Everyone! They sometimes give feedback to individual students. Moo and/or MTCA have offered Master Classes for their students this past year with: Barbara at CMU; Mark Madama, Kaitlin Hopkins, Point Park; Robin Lewis (Rider); Vicki Bussert (Baldwin Wallace); Amy Rogers from Pace; Aubrey Berg from CCM. And there are more.
None of these auditors want students “overcoached.” In other words, they don’t want their movements and thoughts memorized such that they cannot be “in the moment”. If someone says they don’t like students to be coached, I would think that is what they mean. But they surely want them prepared. They want them to succeed. That is why they offer these classes. I find nothing inappropriate about it. Its what they do for a living and it may be the only opportunity your kid gets to know what these very learned folks think about auditioning. So it is helpful not just for college auditions, but also for their careers.
Yeah, CMU used to say this (but I don’t think they do anymore). It seems rather ironic to me considering that their key faculty/heads work together to give workshops with private college audition coaches.
I can’t attest to whether Brent Wagner ever said that or not, but again, the irony would be that he and other faculty from his program conduct workshops in concert with private college audition coaches. It seems to me that folks from these programs more than give their stamp of approval toward private audition coaching as they are now a part of that process themselves.
I think anyone pursuing a BFA degree program should be getting training and coaching of some sort to prep for their auditions. But it can come from many sources. I just don’t want those new to this process to feel they must attend a pre-college program with current BFA faculty or get coached by BFA faculty members in order to increase their chances. Many, MANY successful applicants have worked with local teachers and coaches and made out very well. But most do get training with teachers/coaches prior to college. Like some others have mentioned here, my daughter worked with her regular voice teacher of five years to prepare her audition songs (he is a well regarded voice teacher but I don’t think of him as an audition coach). She also worked with someone for about five months to prep her monologues (our school doesn’t have drama classes). But she never met any faculty at BFA programs prior to auditioning. I do think the audition coaching aspect of this process has grown in ways that were not as prevelant when my kid applied to college 10 years ago. It seems to have become a big business and faculty are more connected to private coaches and so on. Ten years ago, my D and her friends who were successful at BFA admissions tended to prep with voice and acting teachers near their hometowns. In my D’s case, those who helped her lived in VT (as we did), though happened to also teach and commute to NYC weekly, and were of a very high quality. They were teachers, more than coaches.
^Totally agree. You don’t “need” to take classes from BFA faculty to succeed. Plenty of kids never do any of this and meet with success. It is not a deal breaker/maker.
I’ should probably duck after I say this, but… I’m going to suggest that whether a auditioner has been coached or not is just a piece of information- neither good or bad. Students come in with many different strengths, weaknesses AND advantages. It’s what you do with it that matters. A student who comes from a rural town in the midwest has different opportunities then a student who lives in NYC- that is recognized, but it doesn’t make one better than the other. I think it’s similar with coaching. Some families have the ability to pursue it and some don’t, and that just becomes part of the whole package- without bias for or against. Schools want to see applicant’s best work; however that comes about.
I am also not even sure how a school would know if you coached with someone from say MTCA. My D’s resume lists all the people she has trained with and her MTCA coaches are frankly just part of the pack. I don’t see why she would stand out at “coached by MTCA” unless she had Ellen on her resume.
I think what Stagelighter shows is the impact of the internet on the entertainment business as a whole. I personally think that more and more talent will be discovered through the internet and these professors are scouting for talent as much as offering valuable services. I guarantee you that casting directors and agents are doing the same.
