Coaches that are also professors at audition schools

@notmath1, I just realized you were actually quoting me in your opening sentence in post #47 and not just agreeing with me. I guess your testimonial evidence was I guess to question whether or not the teachers mentioned are actually providing an end run to the admissions process at the schools they teach at. I’m a little slow.

I encourage you to read general admissions blog comments, tweets or tumblers (whatever a tumbler is) at any college that does that kind of social media posting. They are ripe with similar comments from eager students whose cup runneth over with enthusiasm and I guess can’t help wearing their love on their sleeves. It doesn’t mean that the admissions departments ever factor that into their consideration or even track it. Same applies to an enthusiastic testimonial about a particular teacher’s work. It doesn’t mean the recipient #1 will even read it and #2 will do anything with it even if they do read it or #3, which is my personal favorite, give a lick.

I had a chuckle with respect to @alwaysamom above confirming the not giving a lick with the teacher she knows well personally and it possibly having the opposite effect. Except I know she stated the first part as fact and the second tongue in cheek. Teachers and hopefully admission reps at any school who read some of the blog post nonsense know that they are looking at nervous excitement coming out of 17 and 18 year olds HS students who can’t contain it. The teachers and admission reps are pros who know how to give the HS kids the benefit of the doubt. They can wait until they actually get their hands on them in college to appropriately bring them back to earth :wink:

@vvnstar, I love your positive outlook. I’m sure most if not all of the coaches have the utmost integrity. I mean, we know or have met a lot of these people and they are nice people, working largely as teachers of our kids. But this is where the CONCEPT gets murky and why some people have some discomfort with the explosion in the coaching business: let’s say I run Upright Coaching Service, and pay Professor Sleazebucket to do a master class. Professor Sleazebucket is a busy person, directly involved with admissions, and likes to make extra money. Someone else comes along and starts Sleaze Coaching Service, and offers to pay Professor Sleazebucket twice as much, but (wink,wink) “hopes” that he will consider the Sleaze students when making admission decisions. So Professor Sleazebucket goes to work for them and not for me because he can make twice as much in the same amount of time. I AM NOT SAYING THIS HAPPENS, and all the coaches I have known have been wonderful, helpful people. But that is the business model that can lead to corruption, and is why in other businesses, such set-up (where the person making the decision can also profit from the people wanting a decision in their favor) wouldn’t be allowed or would have mandatory oversights to prevent even the potential for such a scenario. In some cases the “understanding” doesn’t even have to be overt or spoken; just the POSSIBILITY that someone’s decisions COULD be influenced, even subconsciously, by their potential to continue to earn gobs of extra money is what makes it not allowed. Or they could NOT want to appear influenced and go in the other direction. Now don’t everyone jump down my throat. I am NOT saying this happens in the MT coaching business. I’m just saying it COULD, and there are other businesses I know of that do not allow this type of arrangement for this reason.

Good point Calliene. The audition process is competitive and the odds may seem insurmountable without the best preparation you can afford. The attributes that may repel many of us from engaging Professor Sleazebucket, may attract others to do so. I wonder if there are times when an auditor has chosen to recuse themselves from the decision process due to familiarity with the student?

I tried to make this clear earlier, that I agree that there is an appearance of impropriety when a student has a public testimonial/endorsement/advertisement for a coach she has paid for services who is also an audition auditor, as in the case of McElroy of NYU/Tisch working via Stagelighter. The student is thanking him for his specific song suggestions and vowing to sing them for her NYU audition. That pretty much speaks for itself. It APPEARS questional to some.

However, I think we have all been assured that no student gets accepted into a program who isn’t deemed worthy by the subjective judgement of the auditors, and no amount of insider help or nepotism will get a student accepted who doesn’t deserve it, But I do think good, expert coaching can make a student’s presentation more skilled in the audition process. And that can raise the level of competition for everyone. That is a good thing.
Yes, the internet has changed things and it will never be as it was before.

Again…wow

@Notmath1, I don’t think that, given the current climate, that student or professor did anything out of the ordinary. That student would be an idiot to NOT sing a song for their NYU audition that an NYU professor said would be a good song for them. The expectation is that the NYU Professor is telling the student, via their subjective albeit professional advice, “This is a great song for you! Sing it! It will help you get into schools!” Of course that professor would include their own school in the mix. Why wouldn’t they? This happens probably with every coach out there who also teaches at a school the student may be applying to.

OK I just reread this and understand better what you are saying: that the student’s public endorsement of this professor is essentially advertising for his coaching services, where he presumably profits. Thus the coach could potentially “reward” this student by admitting him, subconsciously or not. Or, via alternate paranoid theory, could be aware of the conflict of interest and intentionally NOT admit him. Got it. :-?

Exactly

The amount of money paid to each coach is miniscule. I think the college faculty do it as a recruitment tool, the same way that their summer pre-college programs are a vehicle by which likely candidates can sample what their college programs are about and the school can try to sell their undergraduate programs. I think that top-rate candidates will get noticed by the coaches and pursued by schools and less than stellar candidates will get advice on how to get better, but will not necessarily be tracked. Without doubt the same tactics are used by casting agents, talent agents and managers. I think the “talent” on the site gives name recognition and legitimacy to the site.

One cannot presume to know what the teacher is actually thinking from a student endorsement. In reality, all that endorsement says is that that student now has material to work with that was suggested by the professional he paid for to receive that exact input.It doesn’t say anything about what the teacher is actually thinking. For all we know, the teacher thinks the kid is great and will be watching for him during school auditions or he is thinking that the student just doesn’t have it and shouldn’t be pursuing MT. None of these teachers control what somebody wants to write in a testimonial about their work.

hmm well I hate to be the cynical one here, but if only the most talented out there were always the ones that got cast, I have oceanfront property in Missouri to sell… and yeah, in general cream is what rises, but there is a lot of cream in the business still waiting for the chance to rise. But I think you are right that the faculty are trying to recruit and check out the talent coming their way, in addition to selling a service.

I agree that college faculty who do this (coaching, workshops, etc. with potential applicants) do it to recruit rather than for the money. That said, it almost seems ironic that they feel a need to recruit when they already have hundreds and in some cases, over a thousand applicants and typically strong talent pools already applying/auditioning that you would think they are not coming across additional kids in these coaching/workshop sessions that they would not otherwise see anyway at auditions.

I think the faculty are just cobbling together a living which includes leveraging their credentials and teaching expertise. I personally think it’s understandable and reasonable.

Really? You don’t think they do it for the money? I honestly have no idea what they get paid, but if I were them, I wouldn’t want to give up my summers and weekends off to travel to recruit students that, like @Soozievt said, really don’t need recruiting. I mean, I’m sure their expenses on these trips (often to fun places like NYC) are paid, but I think, like most people, they expect to get paid appropriately for their time and expertise.

And @Halflokum, since you quoted me, you are right, who knows what they are thinking. My point was just that it’s a good bet that a faculty-coach would suggest a song to a student that they believe will show the student in the best light, whether the student auditions where the coach teaches, or at any other school. Also, jinx on the above comment, which I posted the exact same time you did. :wink:

Sure, they do get paid! Just saying that I bet they don’t just do it for the money but also as a recruiting tool. I just wonder sometimes why they even need to bother to recruit. It ain’t as if they don’t already have a zillion talented applicants, LOL! Also, in terms of the workshops they provide in liaison with private acting coaches, they were gonna see those kids for sure at auditions anyway. And frankly, these are often kids who can afford those services and to travel long distances to these workshops and so on. Now, if only they would “recruit” in some out of the way places where there is also a lot of talent…say, in my neck of the woods in rural Vermont, LOL…where honestly I know many kids who did go onto BFA programs (ie., NYU/Tisch, Ithaca, CMU, Emerson, etc.) who never got face time with these faculty prior to auditions! In any case, those new to this process need to know that you can be successful at college auditions coming from anywhere and without having ever met faculty at these BFA programs prior to your official audition. If you do beforehand, that’s great. It just is not a “must!”

Educators educate. That’s their passion. It doesn’t matter much whether it’s coaching or master classes or regular faculty work. They also, like every other person who needs food and shelter, need to maximize their income within the limits of what’s appropriate and what their primary employers allow.

Let me use an example of how some employers see similar quandaries that arise in another altruistic profession.

Academic physicians are constrained by their hospital/medical school employers from interacting with drug company reps in particular ways. Solid research evidence shows that the most self-aware physician, one who is quite attuned to ethical problems (never eats a drug company sponsored lunch, sits on no boards, does not accept free travel to luxury locations in order to be ‘trained’) even that physician is more likely to prescribe a drug if its name is on any pens, post-it notes, mugs, or tote bags in her environment, whether or not that swag belongs to her. Since what we want is for patients to get the best care they can from their doctors (and students to get the best training they can from professors and attendings) with no bias toward one treatment over another, we cannot pretend that familiarity in and of itself does not have a subconscious influence over judgement. As a result, many hospitals (particularly children’s hospitals) do not allow drug company representatives into their buildings at all.

I doubt anyone will argue with the statement that student who has been coached by a particular professor will have a very different experience auditioning for that professor than a student who is unfamiliar. The professor will, in turn, have a different perception of that student. The exact financial transaction and its size are not what’s relevant. It’s the familiarity that seeps into the audition room. It’s the affinity that knocks the playing field off its axis.

However, it is up to academic institutions to set limits for their employees. If a conservatory wished, it could disallow outside teaching, or one-on-one coaching of future applicants. The school could require that any professor who has coached a particular applicant recuse himself from adjudication of that student’s audition. The schools can address what is, at least to some, an appearance of impropriety in this area by establishing ethical guidelines for faculty behavior. Just as easily, a school can clarify for all that these extra-curricular transactions are permissible and that any influence they have over admissions is deemed negligible and irrelevant. For all we know, those discussions may have been had many times over at these schools and the lines are already drawn where the schools want them.

The reason this is such a thorny topic for fine arts programs is that these professors are involved in admissions decisions in a way that doesn’t correlate to other majors. The psych professors are not weighing in much less making final decisions on potential admits, nor are the historians or the literary lions, as far as I am aware. Artistic judgements are completely subjective and there is no way to examine how the knowing and being known influences the student’s performance and the professors’ perception of it. In the absence of objective measures (standardized Shakespeare testing, anyone?) there will never be a clearcut methodology for determining how classes and coaching impact outcomes. But the familiarity they foster will certainly change the temperature in an audition room.

Good summation!

Because my message was too brief, I wish to add that a college intent on restricting its professors’ outside income streams would have to compensate for that lost income by raising salaries and/or improving benefits.

Regarding post 78…

Well, first of all, they could restrict private coaching to those who are not auditioning for college. However, the colleges themselves benefit from all this and likely won’t restrict it because it is seen as a recruiting tool.