Any thoughts out there on Colgate vs Franklin and Marshall? I’m concerned about fit for my son who is not interested in frats (I know both schools are big on frats) and is not a partyer or athlete. Also we are not wealthy so he would want to have a decent sized group of students who are not rich- he won’t have much money to spend on extras so wouldn’t be able to travel much or spend much on entertainment.
Are these schools fairly equivalent in those areas or are there differences? Anyone know?
I would imagine Colgate is a little more wild than F&M in Amish country. And Colgate seems to have become more a rich kids school…
Clarinetdad16,
Not sure what is meant to be conveyed by “seems to have become more a rich kids school”.
I doubt if your assertion is meaningful, although I recognize that perceptions can be powerful and also misleading. But If you have data showing demographics and income levels of Colgate families over, say, the past 10 years, please share it. And when you do I will overlay Colgate’s impressive increases in its financial aid commitments to families which have demonstrated need, an initiative successfully executed in Colgate’s 2012-ending $480 million capital campaign. All to show that Colgate today is far more diverse across the board by any measure than at any time in its 195 year history.
For artie1: It would be interesting to learn how you would assess the impact of Greek life at Colgate vs other LACs after your visits to them. Colgate’s website shows that 30% of students have an affiliation; there are 5 fraternities, 3 sororities, and pledging Greek houses is allowed during sophomore year for junior year residency. Then there is the balance between activities open to the campus between Greek and non-Greek organizations, including the new Residential Commons system and the 10 themed houses.
Go 'gate!
Percent of Colgate students receiving Pell Grants: <9 percent
Percent of Colgate students receiving financial aid: 41 percent
Percent of F&M students receiving Pell Grants: 18 percent
Percent of F&M students receiving financial aid: 61 percent
Colgate is certainly a “rich kid school”. So are most LACs in New England. It’s a wealthy area and many of those kids come from boarding schools. If your son is really worried about that…maybe schools like Colhate are not for him. Anecdotally, yes, lots of drinking at Colgate, reports a friend who will be a sophomore there this year.
When we toured Colgate this last summer, mention was made of the fact that the percent of students going Greek has dropped fairly significantly the past five years (much to the shock and stunned horror of a couple alum parents in the group, amusingly enough), down to just under a third (higher for women than men). So Greek life is still a big thing there, but apparently not like it used to be.
I consider Princeton Review to be little more than an anecdotal source, but Colgate ranked as a top “Party School” this year (10th). This may reflect a co-opting of the surveys as much as anything else. In any event, Colgate is one of the most difficult schools in the country to gain admission to, so I’d hope that’s a sign they are offering activities to serve all of their students.
“Colhate,” @Qwerty568? Are you sending subliminal messages on CC now?
Greek life at Colgate according to Common Data Sets posted on their website:
2013-14 men 31%, women 35%
2009-10 men 32%, women 29%
2006-07 men 33%, women 29%
There obviously has not been some precipitous dropoff, in fact sorority membership increased 20% over the most recent 4 years. 2013-14 is the most recent Greek data posted. Whoever at Colgate made the comment about significantly lower Greek participation had nothing to base it on.
F&M would probably be a better fit.
@markham please share how Colgate is diverse?
2/3 full pay and 3/4 white
Freshmen
Financial Aid Applicants 299 (39.4%) of freshmen
(249 received aid)
Ethnicity of Students from U.S.
0.2% American Indian/Alaskan Native
3.6% Asian
4.6% Black/African-American
8.6% Hispanic/Latino
3.9% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.2% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
74.0% White
4.9% Unknown
So let’s add to the picture some additional and useful information that describes Colgate today:
1- Colgate had 11 Pell grants in 2012-2014 according to this article while F&M had 17 and HC had 16.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/09/09/upshot/09up-college-access-index.html
Colgate’s endowment per student is $260,000 while that of F&M is $120,000 and that of HC is $210,000.
My take is that Colgate had fewer Pells and that its larger endowment permits more flexibility in its financing of its priorities including that of financial aid. (I take pride in particular in this year’s construction of a new athletic center and a new career services center for $49 million and the 2016 construction of a new arts center for $21 million as principally donor-funded projects).
2- Colgate has demonstrated it manages its resources dedicated to financial aid well.
The 2015 Kiplinger’s Best Values College guide shows that Colgate is ranked no. 19 with average debt at graduation of $18,719. HC is ranked at no. 45 with debt at $30,880 and F&M was ranked at 101 (although subsequent reporting might take it into the top 50) with debt at $29,078.
By the way, the oft-repeated remark “…meets 100% demonstrated financial aid” means little-to-nothing in the context of marketing a college’s likely commitment to a particular applicant’s need relative to what another college will do.
3- About Greek life at Colgate, there was a drop off this past academic year with the suspension of one fraternity that brings the number down to 5. There are 3 sororities. It is fair to say that Greek life enriches the campus scene as another social and residential outlet for students, and that they do perform good works for charity etc.
4- Colgate was ranked #10 party school. # 1 was Bucknell and last year # 1 was Syracuse. If you can tolerate
the work hard/play hard stereotype and/or maybe choose to make your own lifestyle choices you will be fine.
5- What is there to say about the 40% of aided freshmen and 74% of white student body? Nothing, in my view. Apart from the fact that these statistics and reports show how Colgate, an elite LAC, one of the most beautiful campuses in the country, in rural central NY state has the resources to deliver a superb education. So of course it is attractive to full pays! And no, rural NY is not a “wealthy area” or in New England. But it compares favorably as a top 25 USN&WR college uniquely and on its own terms - for those fortunate enough to find their way there and enroll.
Go 'gate!
Post scipt.
I apologize for this additional text but I might as well as improve upon my points 2 and 5, above.
The aided percentage of Colgate’s 2018 freshman class was 43.4%, not the 40% or the 41% qwerty mentioned. (I have already attributed Colgate’s recent increases in aid to its 2012-ending $480 million capital campaign.)
And about this 100% demonstrated need remark that par72 makes in virtually every post, well, Colgate can and does - say the same thing- as do many other colleges. What’s meaningful is the amount and the characteristics of your financial aid award, such as what the college will commit to delivering over your 4 years.
Please see the information below from colgate.edu to clarify and explain. Then you can overlay the information with what is shown in the Kiplinger’s article:
http://colgate.edu/admission-financial-aid/financial-aid
Go’ gate!
The best way to test the “100%” claim (short of actually applying for admission & aid) is via the online net price calculators. For a variety of income/asset levels - or just for your own - compare the estimates for any schools that interest you. Below is an example for a family in MD with one child and $80K income:
Estimated Net Price … College
$12507 Swarthmore (“meets full need” college)
$15440 Bates (“meets full need” college)
$16909 Colgate (“meets full need” college)
$17877 F&M (“meets full need” college)
$21216 Dickinson (private, does not claim to cover full need)
$21860 Bennington (private, does not claim to cover full need)
$22433 University of Maryland College Park (in-state public flagship)
$25142 Holy Cross (so-called “meets full need” college)
$27742 Sarah Lawrence (private, does not claim to cover full need)
$31438 University of Massachusetts Amherst (out-of-state public flagship)
$34145 NYU (private, does not claim to cover full need)
source: College Abacus
These results are typical of what I’ve seen for various low and middle income levels.
Typically, net prices for “meets full need” schools vary by a few thousand dollars +/- from an average that is competitive with (often lower than) the in-state flagship cost. Typically it is thousands lower than the cost of private schools that do not make the “full need” claim. Typically, the most selective of the “meets full need” schools are among the ones with the lowest net costs. However, a few so-called “meets full need” schools may be stretching the definition of “full”, at least for some income/asset scenarios.
So in my opinion, the claim to “meet 100% of demonstrated need” should not be blindly accepted …
but it’s (usually) not meaningless, either. For a low/middle income student with good stats, and possibly even an upper middle income student with good stats, most of the ~60 schools that make this claim do seem to comprise a set of colleges offering high quality at relatively affordable net costs.
Thank you. That is very helpful!
@markham - is Colgate diverse? When faced with statistics that illustrate the lack of diversity at Colgate you provide five points to show it is diverse?
Wow… What about the national story about the protests due to lack of diversity last year? #canyouhearusnow
I am not worried about justifying Colgate’s student body diversity. Why should I be?
My points were illustrative of Colgate’s circumstances and trends. It is fortunate enough to have extremely high caliber students, faculty and staff backed up by terrific resources. And so if the campus becomes more or even less diverse, well, that remains to be seen. Colgate seeks the best and brightest within its means to support those needing financial aid. Nothing mysterious about that. Its strategic plan is pointing towards a need blind future, as Colgate defines the commitment, through another $180 million or so of fundraising. Do you care to contribute?
Now you mention the “rich kids” stuff again. Not sure why full pays bother you so much but I think it’s fair to say that not all Greek members are rich nor are parties limited to the rich. And who says that those graduating with little debt from Colgate or anywhere else were rich to start with? Ok?
About the demonstrations last fall which did relate to students’ feelings of inclusion and other matters, my understanding is that the Colgate administration and the campus generally responded most positively with a multi-point plan that was also widely acclaimed. Another ok.
I hope you are more comfortable now with the context of these remarks.
Go 'gate!
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/28/nyregion/racial-tensions-lead-to-student-protest-at-colgate.html
Lack of diversity is not a problem I guess? How would a more diverse school enrich the student experience?
Nobody is saying Colgate is a bad school. It’s just not diverse, which is something this student wants. That means it probably wouldn’t be a great fit.
After the applicant visits he or she can comment on how “diverse” the place is relative to others. That seems like a reasonable next step in assessing suitability.
Go 'gate!
Ummm. No. The fact that F&M is in Lancaster has nothing to do with the level of rowdiness at the school. The locals think of F&M and a “rich New Yorker’s” school, but that’s not a fair assessment. Definitely check them out. They have a beautiful campus with nice restaurants nearby. Students receive a lot of individual attention from professors.
Out of the two F&M would probably be a better fit. Are you looking for relatively less selective colleges which meet 100 percent of need? St. Olaf has no Greek life, dry campus and a friendly feel, but probably not very diverse. If you haven’t already you may want to list his stats, his major areas of interest, and what he needs (financial) and wants to get some suggestions.