College Choices for Average Student?

Parents Forum
1

<p>My stepson is a junior who goes to a private school where he maintains a C average only by the good graces of his teachers. His teachers consistently lament that he is an extraordinarily bright kid but, as yet, nothing motivates him to do better in school. (For example, he’s 16 y.o. and we’ve told him that getting a car depends on him demonstrating good judgment and effort in school. He’s not interested, he says.) </p>

<p>Despite his complete lack of effort or interest in school, he doesn’t question that the next step is going to college. (Although the situation screams for taking time off to grow up, family dynamics are such that it will be best for him to be away from home.)</p>

<p>Over dinner the other night, he asked for our help in coming up with ideas for college. (He’s previously been uninterested in our efforts to engage him on his choices). </p>

<p>He wants to go out of state. By the time he graduates from high school, his college fund will have approximately $100K. We paid for his sister to go to NYU and his brother is at Northwestern. Both were straight A students, and we are not going to pay $45k per year for this SS who has made deliberate choices not to do well in school. We haven’t decided whether to simply limit his choices to $25K per year and give him free rein to choose or whether to take a greater role in limiting it to state schools, etc. </p>

<p>He has around a 2.3 GPA, no extracurricular activities, no outside-of-school interests. His PSAT score is dismal. He knows that his choices have limited him to mostly noncompetitive schools. </p>

<p>Does any one have suggestions for sifting through not-so- or non-competitive schools? Although a state school close to home would probably do better for our finances, he may do better to get a bit further removed from the family dynamics. He wants a large school but not a mega school. </p>

<p>Ideas?</p>

2

<p>He needs to develop responsibility. Send him to community college for 2 years, spend the 25K to give him a place to live, and tell him that you’ll cut off the money if he doesn’t pass his classes. Thankfully the one thing he knows is the value of a college education. If he really does value it then he will stick to it. And that will give him an opportunity to transfer to a university if he has the grades.</p>

<p>And if a kid could ever benefit from a job, this one is it.</p>

3

<p>I have known students with similar backgrounds who have blossomed in college. A college known for igniting kids’ interest is The Evergreen State College in Olympia, WA. OOS cost of attending this beautiful campus would be under $25K. From a recent NY Times profile (<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/education/edlife/gems.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=aa44902b72612ef9&ex=1311912000&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss’‘%20target=’'_blank):%5B/url%5D”>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/education/edlife/gems.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5088&en=aa44902b72612ef9&ex=1311912000&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss’‘%20target=’'_blank):</a>

<a href=“http://www.evergreen.edu/[/url]”>http://www.evergreen.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Also, one alternative to limiting the choice to 25K is to set conditions as one might find with any scholarship, such as minimum GPA each semester (or quarter), for example.</p>

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<p>In middle school my daughter sounded a lot like your “extraordinarily bright” but unmotivated step son. Luckily the head of her school suggested that we have her evaluated for ADD and learning disabilities. It turned out she had both ADD and a visual processing problem. John’s Hopkins Center for Talented Youth has a whole section on their web site about these kids. If someone is “extraordinarily bright” with ADD or LD they don’t perform like the typical LD kid. They often are seen as lazy, unmotivated, or the gift cancels out the disabilty and vice versa and they appear average. This is very frustrating to the child who senses something isn’t working right and to the adults in the child’s life who can’t figure out why their bright child is “choosing” not to perform. Of course there are kids who are just plain unmotivated or imature but it can also be something else. </p>

<p>Once my daughter was diagnosed everyone in her school approached her differently and she also understood herself better and was able to act more effectively on her own behalf. In a few years she was mostly able to catch up to her “extraordinarily bright” self and is now a freshman at a top tier LAC.</p>

<p>Before you bring out the “tough choices” it might be worth a conversation with the school pyschologist and your pediatrician to see if it’s possible something else is going on. I also highly recommend the John’s Hopkins Center for Talented Youth web site which has a section on gifted learning disabled kids and lots of links to articles. You may recognize your step son in some of their descriptions.</p>

<p>Figuring this all out made such a HUGE impact on my daughter’s life. I just want to make sure other parents are aware that “lazy kids” aren’t always what they appear to be.</p>

5

<p>MallomarCookie’s suggestion of community college sounds tempting, but I think it can go two ways. While it is possible some kids may finally shape up, I highly doubt a private-school educated kid who just needs some inspiration will find the threats useful. In fact, he may end up saying goodbye to college for good. I think the key thing is HE ADMITTED TO YOU HE NEEDS HELP. I think that shows enough potential to warrant giving him an oppurtunity to succeed.</p>

<p>Idad’s suggestion of Evergreen is a solid recommendation, but there are others. Try to aim for smaller, liberal-arts type schools; state colleges and major universities aren’t known for encouraging students who haven’t already to blossom.</p>

<p>I HIGHLY recommend getting Loren Pope’s “Colleges That Change Lives”. Some of the school are out of your son’s league, but a lot aren’t (Evergreen is in there, fyi). Marlboro comes to mind, if he can hande the Vermont cold. Earlham also comes to mind, it’s a smaller school in Indiana. All these schools are in Pope’s book and I’d defenitly recommend browsing through it.</p>

<p>If you have any questions or whatnot whatsoever, please feel free to PM me.</p>

6

<p>idad, Funny that you should mention Evergreen. My niece found her way there, and it truly did spark her interest. In her case, though, she found her way to Evergreen when she was ready to make different choices. The lack of structure in SS’s life now plagues him and given current living arrangements, something we have limited influence over. I’ll have to talk to my niece to see what she thinks given what she knows of SS. </p>

<p>Mallomarcookie, I agree that he needs to grow up. But, for our particular kid, telling SS that community college is his only option will guarantee failure. We’ve learned he will gladly cut off his nose to spite his face. We are blessed to have the resources to explore the possibility that he will thrive if we can find a different environment for him. </p>

<p>ErlindaP, SS has been evaluated by many professionals and LDs are not his issue. But I appreciate the suggestion as I recognize that the description could easily lend itself to LDs. </p>

<p>mynameiszach, Many thanks for the book suggestion. I’m going to order it today from Amazon.</p>

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<p>You could be talking about my son. Before I throw out possibilities, let me know the geographic area you’re looking for, and his SATs/PSATs. I have a little more experience that the usual CC’er at some of the less selective colleges.</p>

8

<p>Also, what state are you in? Even if your stepson wants to go out of state, knowing the state that you are in will help in identifying affordable solutions, because many states are part of regional exchange programs that provide reduced tuition at public colleges in nearby states.</p>

<p>Can you give a general idea of stepson’s interests? I realize that from your description that he clearly is not a kid with any strong passion, but it would help to have an idea as to whether he leans towards math & science, for example, or what, if any, interests he has outside of school.</p>

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<p>His PSAT his freshman year was 125 (39 critical thinking, 39 math, 47 verbal). </p>

<p>We’re in Texas. (He says he doesn’t want to stay in state this week, but last week and maybe next week, he wanted to know good choices for in state. I think he’s nervous about leaving home. He’s a young 16.) </p>

<p>As for interests, for a while last year, he thought he may be interested in being a psychologist. This year, he says he’d really like to do something in the music industry. (Not playing music but on the production/scouting side). He wants to minor in a foreign language, perhaps an Asian language, but he’s not sure. </p>

<p>He spends most of his free time playing World of Warcraft. </p>

<p>Judging from his grades and teacher comments, math comes easy for him but he often misses school and so what should be As are Bs in Algebra II. His writing gives his English teacher a glimmer of brilliance, but he doesn’t like to read and so he doesn’t test well. He is in AP Java and does comparatively well in that class.</p>

10

<p>The state colleges in Massachusetts, which are small residential schools, may fit the bill for your ss. They’re relatively inexpensive, even for OOS (of course, that doesn’t factor in the cost of transportation). For example, Bridgewater State (<a href=“http://www.bridgew.edu%5B/url%5D”>www.bridgew.edu</a>) costs $7,050 tuition, $4900 fees; Fitchburg State is the same (<a href=“http://www.fsc.edu)%5B/url%5D”>www.fsc.edu)</a>. The schools are OK for the money.</p>

11

<p>He sounds just like my friend’s kid. The bad news is that he did not rise to the occasion in college. They sent him to not-very-selective liberal arts college in Vermont (where, no doubt, he got in because they were willing to pay full freight). First semester he flunked three out of four courses and was put on academic suspension. Second semester was an exact repeat. So, for $40,000 he had exactly two courses to show for it. They talked the school into taking him back for sophomore year (!), but at the last minute he declined. He is now home working at their country club as waitstaff. He is talking about going to a local state university “soon.” He’s settled into more of a routine because his friends are all gone. He’s paying for his own car, insurance (car and health), gas, clothes, and pays some room and board. Parents have told him he needs to get an apartment or go to college by September 2007. I do not know how they’ll handle paying for it next time around.</p>

<p>He’s a realy nice kid, who, unfortunately, has decided to do things the hard way. I suppose he’ll figure that out eventually, though.</p>

<p>If it were just the money, of course you could send him to your state school. The problem is that many state schools (especially ones he could get into) probably have less-than-stellar graduation rates. In my friend’s case, I think they thought an expensive, small private school would offer him more support. However, that didn’t seem to matter either.</p>

<p>So, I guess what I’d tell you is that some (I suspect most) of these kids do not suddenly turn over a new leaf in college. It may do him well to have to work and support himself (that’s the key) for a year or so. I don’t know a single “adult” who went back to school who goofed off.</p>

<p>A couple of community college classes and a job might be the best plan.</p>

<p>PS to other posters - what school in “Colleges that Change Lives” could you get into with a 2.3 GPA? Marlboro average GPA 3.2, SAT 110-1340, Evergreen GOA 3.1, SAT 1010-1250, Earlham GPA 3.5, SAT 1100-1350…</p>

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<p>kharts,
May I make a suggestion that does not directly address your question? I’m wondering why he is still attending a high school that has failed to motivate him thus far. I realize it is very late to switch high schools, but have you considered transferring him to a school–private or public–that offers a wider range of activities or clubs? I’m thinking that his interests in programming and music production could be met by some larger public (or private) schools that offer numerous classes in programming and web design, and that have active theater and musical production programs. (Just as an example, my son is very involved in a district-wide program that has provided him with open-ended opportunities to learn programming skills, television production and systems engineering concepts. This program would not be possible in a small school, or a small district.) If your SS were to switch very soon, he would have almost two years to get involved in something and perhaps develop some real interests. </p>

<p>While colleges like Evergreen State can work wonders for kids who arrive with little direction, your SS is almost two years away from college. It seems to me that the problem is more immediate.</p>

<p>Even great private high schools are not always great for every kid. The independent school that my son absolutely loved and thrived in (for grades 6-9) was the wrong place for his younger sister, and ultimately proved too small and limited for high school. (It was very small, so the social dynamic was quite variable.) </p>

<p>The idea of making a big switch after junior year has already begun does sound formidable, but the alternative–two more years of just getting through the day–doesn’t sound ideal either, in my opinion.</p>

<p>Good luck to all of you.</p>

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<p>I suggest Belmont University in Nashville, TN. There are less than 4000 undergraduates. Also:</p>

<ol>
<li> It has the Mike Curb College of Entertainment and Music Business.</li>
</ol>

<p><a href=“http://www.belmont.edu/mb/index.html[/url]”>http://www.belmont.edu/mb/index.html&lt;/a&gt;
It includes a degree in Music Business.</p>

<p>Bachelor of Business Administration (BBA)
The Music Business (MBU) major develops knowledge and skills in a variety of areas such as record company operations, music publishing, artist management, marketing, public relations, merchandising, and music production.
Choose the business emphasis and prepare for a broad range of managerial and marketing careers in the entertainment and music industries.
Choose the production emphasis and master the skills necessary for a career in the development of music for the entertainment and music industries. </p>

<ol>
<li> The “numbers” are as follows from the Common Data Set for 05/06: </li>
</ol>

<p><a href=“http://www.belmont.edu/instres/cds2005/freshadmiss1.html[/url]”>http://www.belmont.edu/instres/cds2005/freshadmiss1.html&lt;/a&gt;
Males Applicants: 799
Males Accepted: 570</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.belmont.edu/instres/cds2005/freshadmiss2.html[/url]”>http://www.belmont.edu/instres/cds2005/freshadmiss2.html&lt;/a&gt;
25/75 SAT Scores:
Verbal 530/640
Math 540/640</p>

<ol>
<li> The son of close friends graduated from there and loved it!</li>
</ol>

<p>It also states that it is a “Christian campus devoted to the ideals of caring and serving” which may or may not appeal to you. Hope this helps. Best of luck in your search.</p>

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<p>kharts, since your son is only 16, the conversation he had with you about colleges may be a starting point for motivating him. You might tell him that his options are very limited with his current GPA, but that colleges like to see a record of improvement, and that if he can raise his GPA over the coming year that his options could improve tremendously. You might even help him target some colleges that would be reaches for him at this point, but reasonable if he could bring up the grades somewhat. That may be a motivating factor.</p>

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<p>Weenie, That’s our fear. As a practical matter, even if we required him to take time off from school before starting college to demonstrate what it would be like to try and earn a living without a college education, his mother would not support that decision and would either try to enforce a divorce decree that requires us to pay for college (the less likely choice) or just allow him to live at her home and avoid the lessons that time off is designed to teach. </p>

<p>Our, as yet still unformed plan, is to tell him that he has this $100K to educate himself. And that if he uses $25K or $30K of it and has 2 credit hours to show for it at year’s end, then we’ll likely require time off–even if over his mother’s objections–but also let him know that the available pool of resources to finish college won’t replenish from the $30K he wasted. He’ll have to adjust his undergraduate options or take out loans. And continuing with our $$ will be predicated on meeting certain expectations that we’ll tailor for him when the time comes.</p>

<p>Midmo, The high school has a lot of extracurricular options for him, he just doesn’t wish to be a part of them. My husband is required by the decree to fund a private high school. We could challenge that in court based on his failure to attend classes on a regular basis and his lack of effort in school. But, the alternatives are public school, which isn’t a great choice in our neck of the woods, and the private school he’s in stacks up favorably to other choices. Plus, these teachers that he has know that he’s a bright kid and do as much as they know how to do to motivate him. A few of them, like his English teacher, have his respect.</p>

<p>Phorid, I’m excited to check that out. Over dinner, we were actually talking about Nashville although thinking University of Tennessee. We even joked that he may have to start liking country music. </p>

<p>Calmom, It defies logic, but we’ve tried this. He accused us of lying to him by saying that his choices are limited by his grades. He said that he’s done the research and that there are plenty of schools that he can attend that have no standards. This was 6 months ago, and so perhaps he’s matured. We’re using the carrot of a car–a more immediate and, in his mind, dire “need”–as a motivator and still getting nowhere.</p>

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<p>Belmont University, average GPA 3.5, SAT 1070-1280…</p>

<p>You are in a tough spot kharts and I sypathize with you. The tuition withholding route MIGHT work, but he’s likely to A) not believe you or B) not care or C) it will be really hard for you to stick with. Kids who are used to getting basically everything they want (and he probably believes you’ll get him a car one way or another) don’t tend to be highly motivated by gifted money.</p>

<p>I think the only thing you can do is to continue to try to get him to improve his grades. Might take some tough love and tight rules at home. But yikes, that sounds hard even to me.</p>

17

<p>Oh, well, I’m not sure that I have any advice for Texas. For anyone else in the same boat in the Mid-Atlantic, we really liked Shepherd University (2.0 GPA, 900 SAT to get in) in West Virginia. Albright in Pennsylvania is also less selective, but pricier. Frostburg State is a less selective state school in Maryland. My son is at York College of Pennsylvania, but probably just barely got in with a 2.8 and a 1050, as a full-pay male.</p>

<p>A lot of kids here in Maryland head to West Virginia schools if they need a less selective option.</p>

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<p>Weenie, We’ve tried tough love and rules at home, and so rather than live with us full time as he once did, he lives with his mom, who–despite being told otherwise by the long list of people who have offered professional help to us–says that she doesn’t believe in rules or boundaries and lets him do as he pleases. Short of a nasty court battle where he’ll choose his mom, and she’s not obviously unfit, we are left with exerting influence only over financial issues. Makes us sad. </p>

<p>That he’s finally at the point of allowing us some access to helping him look for colleges may be just what we need. That places like Belmont with a Music Business degree that seems to fit his desires have an average GPA of 3.5 may be the thing to motivate him in a tangible way.</p>

19

<p>khart,
I am not familiar enough with colleges in your area to make any recommendations but a chill went down my spine when you mentioned world of warcraft. My son went through a two year spell of warcraft and we had grave doubts about how well he would do in college without us placing some limits on his play time. His HS gpa went from 3.75 freshman year to 3.0 senior year. Our son is now a freshman at Roanoke College in Virginia and when asked about his WOW time, he shrugged and said he just doesn’t have time for that anymore. He did have some ec’s including marching and concert band and BS - he got his eagle - but if he spent the time on schoolwork that he did on WOW, he would have been the validictorian. Good luck!</p>

20

<p>Picking up on calmom’s point, have you and he visited any schools together? Although the one I’m about to mention is far distant from you and is small, a visit to a school which would excite him might have a positive effect: Champlain College in Vt., has a game design major, accepted 5 of 6 applicants from my S’ hs class. The lowest stats among the acceptees were an 84 GPA (high C at our school) and SATs of 490V and 430M. But maybe virtual tour of such a school (I just use this one as an example, but think any school with the music industry ties, computer gaming focus…; I assume there must be large schools with this stuff ) would excite him and internally motivate him to move his hs stats up just a notch. Or an IRL visit to a similar school nearer to you. It is a little early for most juniors to be visiting schools, but it might be the right thing for this kid. I said I use this school just as an example, but I lied :p. One of its special features is that, instead of having kids do the broad general distribution reqs in the first year or two and then dig into the major, it starts them right out in the specialty areas of interest - really drawing them in - and then they can “round out” their education in later semesters. This might work with a kid like your SS. I’m not sure how to find schools with similar approaches, but I like it for this kid.</p>

<p>He is right of course that there are plenty of schools he can attend. Although, of course, he is limited by his grades as there are a number of schools he can’t attend.</p>

<p>Why limit him to state schools? I like your idea of establishing the budget and giving him fairly free rein to choose within that. Let him know that you are his “research assistant” in the college search department. As he toys with different possible majors, schools sizes, locations, types… tell him that you will work to come up with some possibilities for him. Which you are, of course, doing here and may be able to supplement with help from the school’s GC. Have you used the college board website or USN&WR premium online edition - search for schools that have his potential special-interest majors (the music industry, the computer gaming), then cross-check that they also have the more traditional majors he might pursue, like psychology. Gives him the option to explore once there.</p>

<p>Regarding external motivators, like a car: Like most parents, I gave up my high-falutin objection to bribery about the time my kid was a toddler :). Rewards can be a great motivator, so I have no objection to that approach on principle. But I’m not sure it’s the right approach here. You mention that it doesn’t seem to have worked. And what I am really picking up here is that this kid is thinking about college and wants to go. I think you might have the most success building on that internal motivation which is beginning to show up. </p>

<p>It’s true that he might flub his transition to college. Some do. And I get that the idea of a gap year is not a good one due to family dynamics issues. Plus that can be scary with a kid like this - the lack of structure. With the right school, he might grow up just as much there as with the time off to mature. Some kids are late bloomers and you are seeing glimmers of it. I say, build on what you see as if you expect it to be the new him, rather than assuming he will repeat past behaviors. He might rise to it.</p>