College Counselor Sick of Reading about Golden Kids Getting into Harvard

Parents Forum
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@PragmaticMom , how can my comments about rationalization be patronizing when I admitted that I do it myself at times and when I gave an example of not making the cut myself? it’s just true: people rationalize as a way to self-sooth. We all do it at some point. Some of us, though, know we’re doing it.

I didn’t say an Ivy is always superior. I said, “For the most part, it is better to get your undergrad at Dartmouth than at the University of Alabama. Likewise, between Brown and a typical state flagship U, it is a no-brainer.”

Of course, there are situations on the margin where going elsewhere makes more sense. If you know you want to be a vet, for example, you probably will do well to go to Washington State if you live here. If you want to work in the extractive industries, you probably need to be a technical school like Colo School of Mines or where they teach that stuff at one of the Dakota schools. There are other even more compelling examples I’m sure.

My comments were generally limited to an Ivy vs. a TYPICAL state flagship. Berkeley, UVa, UT Austin, Michigan, etc. are not typical state flagships.

And I’m not fixated on Ivy. As @LucieTheLakie can attest, I side with the classical view that the elite LAC is still the gold standard of undergraduate education. Small classes, smart class mates, campus and school on a human scale, sports kept within reasonable bounds of importance (and note my kids are serious athletes), de-emphasis on narrow, technical “job training” classes, etc. I’m probably more of a NESCAC than Ivy League fan as they go. One kid at Middlebury, one at Pomona (both had Ivy options) and one I’m hoping to place at a select LAC next year.

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You’re assuming that Brown’s and Dartmouth’s definitions of need are the same as the family’s. I know lots of families who don’t feel they can afford their EFC, even from generous need-based schools. I can’t make that decision for another family, and neither can you. Obviously the Neil Gablers of this world would agree with you–the elite school is always the better choice. No matter what it costs. (Although, apparently, he can’t afford an unexpected $400 bill, and I most certainly can.)

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

Assuming you can get admitted to Dartmouth and can afford the five years for an engineering degree, for example, of course, Dartmouth is “better” than Alabama. But do I really need a Dartmouth education at three times the cost? Depends on my bank account and a lot of other factors. Did the Bama students headed to MIT and Stanford miss out by not attending an Ivy for undergrad? I don’t know; I’d have to ask them. Their parents seemed pretty proud of them. I doubt they care, frankly.

Nobody is asking you to lower your standards, @MiddleburyDad2. In your world, apparently everything is ranked, and the higher the rank, the better. Period. That’s fine. I just don’t subscribe to that philosophy. To me, things are more of a value proposition. Is it worth that much more for that “better” education? It’s not an automatic decision, and I’m guessing there are lots more families like mine than like yours.

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@LucieTheLakie: “Not sure how she landed there…”

Can I just say that I greatly appreciate your judicious wording here?

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@pragmaticmom

I’ve never heard of this but it sounds like it might be useful…even maybe for those not pursing writing?

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@OHMomof2 – I assume other fields have similar demands for work product — don’t computer science students have to show examples of their coding expertise? I would either demonstrate my app in person, or link to it in my resume.

Some employers give you “homework” – a programming assignment or a marketing assignment – that you have to complete within say 24-48 hours to be considered further. Google is one of those places.

All this is to say, whether you graduate from a big-time college or a little-known school in the middle of nowhere, YOU can stand out by showing off practical, tangible application of your education. Don’t be one of those people who is book smart with a fancy degree but who has never gotten their hands dirty with real work. Be clever and scrappy, and show them you aren’t afraid to sweat for success.

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I always think a full ride in an honors program in a state flagship vs. full pay at an ivy is a very hard choice. But it doesn’t mean a state flagship, even its honors program, is better than an ivy. As long as people make choices, ranking is unavoidable. Some people rank ivies above Bama, others don’t; but they rank nonetheless.

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@PragmaticMom I admit i ask for personal reasons, D is doing her first internship as a college student this summer. She’s at a selective school but the idea of doing more than just updating the resume strikes me as a good idea no matter where you go.

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Really, I’m not assuming anything at all. I can’t delve into the details of each school’s financial aid calculations. I’m just assuming the schools with the billion dollar endowments will take care of kids who have need. After all, Stanford now pays the entire cost of attendance for any admit whose family makes less than $125,000.

Neil Gablers is a nit wit. I’m not.

We agree, then, that Dartmouth is better. It’s good to find common ground.

We agree, too, that our choices are a value proposition. The point of our disagreement, respectfully, appears to be where and how to assess greatest value. Sometimes, value means spending a little more. Sometimes it doesn’t.

I don’t rank everything. I don’t even really pay much attention to those lists, which are all over the place in any event. I pay attention to many of the factors that tend to drive schools up those various lists over others, namely:

  • quality of student body (this is big, as it affects as much of the educational experience as the professors and the buildings)
  • resources as measured by spending per student
  • academic reputation
  • in the case of undergraduate studies, the degree of focus on undergraduates.

Things like that matter to me. US News is a rag.

Finally, I’ll note that your comment in post #211 is interesting to me:

“Just in the past few weeks, I’ve seen graduation plans that included … grad school at MIT and Stanford, law school at Vanderbilt.”

It’s interesting in that all three of those schools are quite expensive, and there are much cheaper alternatives for students with need. Wouldn’t it be helpful for you to list those schools, too, when citing examples of successful outcomes? Are the kids going to grad or law school at, say, LSU, any less successful?

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i think to someone who can be full pay to three very expensive privates, the world looks different than to most of the rest of us.

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Grad schools for engineering are usually expected to pick up the tab for tuition and give a stipend for living by giving people TA or RA positions. If not, most people do a one year masters at their own cost.

Some law schools have scholarships. Vanderbilt med school definitely does have a ton of them but not sure about law.

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I had gotten stuck on the notion that if “you can’t pay for it, the school will take care of you.” If only financial aid were so simple.

We cannot pay $65,000 as an upper middle class family, but colleges have determined we are not eligible for financial aid. To close the gap between what we can pay, and what college will cost, my son only applied to colleges where he would receive merit awards. NESCACs etc off the list. His list would have looked very different if we could write that check without blinking. That is the world we live in, not complaining, he had good choices. But it is overbroad to say “if you can’t pay, you will get financial aid.”

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There was a recent thread where the OP’s twin daughters were accepted to Stanford, and with two kids in college, you’d think they’d have a pretty good shot at some excellent need-based aid. And yet this is what the parent posted:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1880739-stanford-or-full-ride-p1.html

Only the individual family can determine whether or not “the schools with the billion dollar endowments will take care of kids who have need.” The devil is in the details.

Re the two students headed to MIT and Stanford, they were both in the engineering college, and I believe they’re headed to fully-funded programs, so I don’t think there was any need “for much cheaper alternatives.”

And the student headed to Vanderbilt Law I’d have to assume is full pay. I have no idea if she’ll be taking out loans, but I don’t believe she has any undergraduate debt since she had a full-tuition scholarship. (She may have been a NMF and had even more than that; I’m not sure.) Law school is very expensive; if you can enter a top law school without any debt, isn’t that generally considered a good thing?

The only reason I listed those specific schools (along with the two grads headed to Google and Lockheed) was to counter the argument that those making the ‘budget choice’ are automatically going to be limiting their future opportunities. I’ve never suggested that those who choose otherwise are foolish (unless they were taking on massive debt to do so.). And I’ve also never claimed that all debt is bad debt either. (Stafford loans seem reasonable to me. Beyond that, I’d tread with great caution unless you’re guaranteed a job on Wall Street.)

In the end, it’s as much about the student as the school. Exceptional students tend to do well wherever they go and make the most of the unique opportunities offered.

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“The only reason I listed those specific schools (along with the two grads headed to Google and Lockheed) was to counter the argument that those making the ‘budget choice’ are automatically going to be limiting their future opportunities.”

Just to be clear, I have never made, and will never make, that argument. One of the most successful (by many measures) people I know attended San Jose State. Honestly, I get it.

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“i think to someone who can be full pay to three very expensive privates, the world looks different than to most of the rest of us.”

if that is directed at me, I think you’re underestimating my ability to think outside of my own box, saying nothing about my own, personal, experiences, which are far different from those of my children.

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Maybe the article’s point was to look at colleges holistically, not just hierarchically. (A real challenge for some on CC.) That would include it all, finances, dept strengths, access to faculty and research opps, peer prep and goals, peer successes, and more.

Not just rep and the idea that only schools that take their 1600-4000 bright kids will have bright, well prepped, goal oriented students.

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And the original comment wasn’t directed at you. It was made in the context of the whole “small fish in a big pond” vs. “big fish in a small pond” discussion. I was merely trying to add that the “big fish in the big pond” can have exceptional outcomes too. Even when that "big pond’ is a mid-tier state flagship. The student who attends the better school doesn’t always outperform the student who goes with the more affordable option (if graduate or professional school, or entry level jobs, are the criteria).

And it was also in the context of this comment:

I simply don’t agree. Depends on which Ivy and which state flagship you’re comparing. Depends on the major, depends on the student. Others obviously would disagree. So be it. I thought that’s why we we’re having the discussion.

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@lookingforward – I support your “holistic” approach to evaluating colleges. Your post reminds me of comments made on the thread started by @Lindagaf about lessons learned for the “average excellent” student.

Articles that celebrate the admission of truly remarkable students into all the Ivys reinforce the power consumers impart to these campuses, which isn’t a message that needs to be reinforced. It’s not like the reputation of the Ivies depend on these articles and students will stop dreaming about ivy admission if suddenly tomorrow a ban on articles like this one went into effect. The more interesting angle to me are the articles about students who suffered the set-back of not getting into the school they wanted, but had the strength of character to find success elsewhere. This second message isn’t as sexy as the first, but we need to hear it more often than we do.

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I do not agree that Dartmouth over State U is the right choice for every student. Sure, some are pushed by being in a highly competitive environment, but others are not. My daughter is a good student but not perfect. She puts a lot of pressure on herself, and it is nice when she can be the best in a subject or competition. For her, picking Dartmouth or Brown over state U would not have been a good choice.

There are a lot of top students on CC who want something the elite schools might not offer, from sports to marching bands to theater departments any students can participate in. Some students want more flexibility in their courses, or to work and go part time. Some want an ROTC experience.

Objectively, the elite schools are the ‘best’. Subjectively, for any one student or family, they may not be better.

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http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-students/costs-financial-aid/scholarship-programs/

Checked Vanderbilt law school and found that they do indeed have some full tuition merit scholarships.

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Depending on your goals, it may be a good choice to go into six figures of debt to go to a better law school. It’s a totally different calculation from undergrad debt.