I don’t think most people are criticizing Ivies as a place to go, if you get in. My issue is
So yes, the kids that go to the top schools are great. But there are lots of great kids that don’t go to top schools too.
It completely depends on the student and the major. It’s not like there’s some generic “Ivy” student who majors in every subject at his university. Is Brown a better choice for engineering than Michigan or Berkeley?
On the whole, most Ivies (and other elites) offer more rigorous coursework than most state flagships, but beyond that, you need to do your homework and look at the actual offerings. US New rankings are not based on the quality of the teaching in each major.
I don’t think you even need the Honors program at a state flagship**, to get a good education.
You’re either intelligent enough to get something out of your education - i.e., classes taught by PROFESSORS - or you’re not. True, having the opportunity for “socratic” discussion helps -
but here’s the little secret no one tells you about humanities classes at big state universities - They’re mostly small classes, anyway. Most of the huge lecture classes you hear about are intro courses for gen ed courses.
I majored in humanities at a huge state university. There were NEVER more than 15 people in any of my literature (my major) classes , or in any of my upper-level foreign language classes. I took other electives in the humanities and social sciences that had around 20 students or less.
These small classes were all discussion-based. None of them were “Honors”. Most were taught by professors, yes, at a huge state uni.
The ONLY class I had with 200 people or more in a lecture hall was a statistics class required for many different majors - humanities, business, social sciences…
I don’t think I knew a single person in Honors college, and I’m not even sure my university had it back then. We had Honors within departments.
And many university departments still do.
Nowadays, to hear people talk, if you don’t apply for Honors college at state universities, you’ll suffer huge lecture hall classes with people that are half your IQ, who can’t form a coherent sentence, the professor will dumb everything down to their level, and in general, interacting with these university idiots will just hold you back.
Please.
Fwiw, my kid was invited to apply to Honors at all of the colleges she applied to.
** or even at a smaller state school, tbh.
I live in Virginia. So I would have to answer that with a “yes, the quality is as good as an Ivy.”
The educational quality is very important, but so is branding. The reason these articles take the form that they do is because the Ivy brand has power. The average person will have heard of Princeton, but may not know that a degree from TCNJ can also be a fantastic asset. Thus, focusing on elite schools is a risk management strategy in a competitive job market.
Yesterday, D had an interview for an internship at a non-profit. She was informed by the interviewer that they had received more than 900 applications for about 30 spots. For a bank position D1 once interviewed for, the firm had received 150,000 resumes. So with those odds, you are probably going to have a better shot at getting in the door with a degree from a well-known elite school or at least from the local big university. We may all agree that a CTCL school offers a quality education, but it may not be well-known enough to help you get noticed in the job market. Obviously, I’m speaking as someone who lives in metropolitan region. Your mileage may vary elsewhere.
When I think about the smarts shown by many adult posters, then sometimes learn where they went UG (and maybe their G path,) I have little doubt many can bloom where they’re planted and move forward in great ways. It’s very much about the individual. Just getting into a TT isn’t “it.” Nor is selecting the right non-TT a kiss of death. Look around you.
I think people look too much at superficials.
The labor markets are complicated things.
Two hospitals in my city merged a few years ago. So amidst all the stories in the news about the incredible shortage of nurses in the US, experienced nurses with multiple commendations for patient care, post-grad licensing and specialty training, etc. were being downsized. So they took jobs doing shift work at nursing homes or part-time jobs in medical offices. Which forced THOSE kinds of nurses into even lower status jobs. Which meant that newly graduating nurses could not get a job. Any job, at least locally. And you can imagine how frantic parents were that their meticulous plan for getting their kid launched had gone awry (and no, they were NOT interested in hearing that their kid could get a job in Tulsa in about thirty seconds, lord knows I tried.)
I cite this because it is much too easy to conflate the hiring market for a petroleum engineer with that of a mechanical engineer with that of a English major who has social media experience for a consumer products company.
Geographic flexibility, folks. It trumps a lot of elements on a resume when a new grad is looking to launch. Your kid wants to break into TV production? It might mean Duluth and not Los Angeles. Your kid is interested in museum management/curatorial opportunities? The best job might be in Bentonville or Kansas City, not NY.
The “signaling” impact of the name of the college on a resume is super important in some fields, not at all important in others. But being able to go where the job you want actually exists? Very, very important. Start to teach this to your kids when they are young.
I fully agree with #TheGFG. That first job is easier to obtain but after that I think opportunities are what the individual
makes of them. I might also suggest that being say in the top 1% of a great state school like TCNJ (while it’s not Princeton)or any of the top state schools does in fact provide the student (my experience) with tremendous resources
and support that they may not otherwise get at an Ivy if they would be rank and file at said IVY. In other words ,
often more advantageous to be the big fish in a smaller pond.
In terms of lifetime success. , an IVY education really doesn’t gtd success nor does a fine state school preclude .
Make your kids head over to Career Services at some point during Freshman year. A simple walk across campus.
And if your kid IS at a directional state college that nobody outside of your region has ever heard of, he/she can LEARN why kids with a Princeton degree have an easier time (for certain jobs, in certain places, at certain organizations) than others.
I’ve hired lots of Princeton new grads in my life. Not a single one of them had to be sent to a remedial program to learn to write. (Yes, companies teach writing. They have to, even for college grads). Say what you will about branding, it’s all “Ivy Hype”, you can get just as good an education at U. Phoenix as you can Princeton. I’ve heard it all.
But why should my company hire a new college grad who cannot write a coherent four paragraph “executive summary”- regardless of the role? Why should we invest resources in a young professional whose syntax and use of language does not conform to the rules of the English language? I’m not talking about someone who knows the in’s and out’s of various style manuals, or can use Latin quotations appropriately (but those are cool skills).
I’m talking simple, declarative sentences with verbs and punctuation. You cannot imagine how many kids graduate from college who could not have passed Mrs. Riley’s 4th grade class where she taught the difference between a noun and an adverb.
So employers take short-cuts. Swarthmore students can write. Princeton students can write. U Chicago students can write.
If your kid is NOT at one of these schools (and there are dozens, I’m just being dramatic here), there are ways to signal that your kid HAS these valuable skills that employers love. If their major offers a senior thesis option- take it. Don’t take the easy way out- write the damn thesis. Good signal that the prospective employee can write at the college level. If a major offers an interdisciplinary component- do that. Good signal of some ability to think, draw logical conclusions, be analytical with ambiguous problems.
Etc. Rant over.
@blossom – on the other hand, if your child is intending to go into a field in which writing is a core competency such as journalism, copywriting, editing, speechwriting, marketing, PR…etc., there are more convincing (and easy) ways to demonstrate your talent than listing a brand name college on your resume.
I am a professional writer and have served in a hiring role for more than 20 years. The candidates who stand out are the ones who present a clip book or a portfolio showcasing work samples from internships. Every news outlet and company that I’ve hired for has also had an on-site writing test and general knowledge/current events test. I don’t care that you graduated from a college I’ve never heard of if your clips and on-site test scores are top-notch.
Tell your students to not under-estimate the value of work experience during college – especially in fields where work samples and portfolios speak louder than degrees.
Pragmatic mom- agree 100%. There is no substitute for work experience. I cringe when friends tell me that their college kids are coming home “to hang and decompress from a tough semester”- especially if that tough semester involved rushing a fraternity and going to fun parties.
Great advice in both #208 and #209.
Based on what I’ve seen at my son’s mid-tier flagship, what’s really great is to be a big fish in a big pond. THOSE kids are rock stars.
Just in the past few weeks, I’ve seen graduation plans that included jobs with Google and Lockheed Martin, grad school at MIT and Stanford, law school at Vanderbilt (by a young woman who’s just 19!) and multiple med school acceptances. And they ALL had full scholarships for four years, so they’re starting graduating without (or with minimal) debt.
@LucieTheLakie
I don’t understand your reply. What do you mean by “assuming that based on your name”.
I think this is really true. Outside the Northeast, I don’t think companies receive as many Ivy applicants or expect them – not even sure the cachet is great with employers. I am pretty sure my first major employer in the Midwest wouldn’t have thought so – they actually liked to hire from the small outstate universities more than even the state flagships in the region. I think they felt they got applicants who understood their corporate culture better – they skimmed the cream off those schools. It was a good sized company (you would recognize their products if I told you). I now live on the west coast, and while Stanford opens doors here, I don’t think the Ivy schools would necessarily jump to the top of the resume pile. The Ivy frenzy among employers is not really nationwide.
My first boss/employer, in the southeast, was more impressed by the ACC school on my resume than the Ivy. In fact, the Ivy name sort of raised his hackles - “so, who is this ‘rich’ girl who went to the fancy Ivy League school?” is pretty much how he put it to me. (back then, Ivy meant rich). So, the Ivy name helped in getting me noticed but not necessarily in a good way.
@NYHofstraMom, that your child is headed to Hofstra.
@itsgettingreal17 - I didn’t say it was true for every student, and in fact I said exactly not that in an earlier post. However, for most students who actually get into a top Ivy League school or Stanford or MIT or a few others, it would be better for them to pursue that more elite college than to not. Everyone is different, so some of the best and brightest would not do as well at a top school, but most, if given the opportunity, would…when considering the education and the opportunity.
The reason any mention that Harvard is better than the flagship state university is off-putting to so many is that they want to believe that they or their child has all the opportunity available to them at that state school as do the students at Harvard. That is simply not the case. Do some Harvard graduates fail to succeed? Of course. Do some state university graduates do really well in life and succeed? Of course. If all things are equal does the Harvard graduate have a leg up on a state school graduate? Yes. That is inarguable.
The better discussion point should be, should we care? Or do you personally care or do I personally care? For me, I don’t care. Ivy League graduates can not hold every available job and not even all the good ones. A lack of a degree from any university doesn’t prohibit you from starting your own business.
My comments were about the disdain for elitism. Most people do not like elitism. Some feel it is unfair. Many are jealous. Some can’t wrap their brains around the fact that elitism has a purpose and that we should embrace most of it. Some still refuse to accept that there are intellectually elite people. We should celebrate those who get into such an elite college, not find ways to blame the system or demonize those who do get those admissions.
If, we celebrate those who get into many Colleges That Change Lives as the author of the article suggest, are we not just setting the bar of elitism at a different place? What about the decent colleges (and there are many) that are neither Ivy League schools nor on the Colleges That Change Lives list? Would there then be a guidance counselor who writes a piece about how he wants to see the story about all those who got into even lesser schools?
Bragging about how many Ivy League schools a person got into or how many Colleges That Change Lives a person got into is silly. The most exciting thing should ALWAYS be that a student got into the college of their choice.
But, as much it should be OK to celebrate any student getting into any college (and I think it is great to do that), Ivy League admits deserve to be celebrated as well, and those celebrations should not be tempered at all for any reason. Those students worked hard and used their gifts very well to get admitted to those schools. No one should be trying to make them feel bad in any way about that.
The elitism argument reminds me of a quote from my hero, Yogi Berra:
“Nobody goes there anymore. It’s too crowded.”
Not exactly analogous, but good for a Friday chuckle I hope.
"It completely depends on the student and the major. It’s not like there’s some generic “Ivy” student who majors in every subject at his university. Is Brown a better choice for engineering than Michigan or Berkeley?
On the whole, most Ivies (and other elites) offer more rigorous coursework than most state flagships, but beyond that, you need to do your homework and look at the actual offerings. US New rankings are not based on the quality of the teaching in each major."
@LucieTheLakie , we’ve had a version of this discussion before.
So, I disagree that it depends on the student and major. Ideally, it really doesn’t. For the most part, it is better to get your undergrad at Dartmouth than at the University of Alabama. Likewise, between Brown and a typical state flagship U, it is a no-brainer. You go to Brown. And with those two random examples, you don’t have to worry about the $$ part - if you can’t afford it, Brown and Dartmouth will give it to you.
There are standards folks. Everything isn’t equally good. Yeah, there are some basic things to consider, but for the typical kid going to college, they should aspire to go to the best place to which they have access.
Getting our heads around what we do and don’t have access to is a challenge. I know. Rationalizing really seems to be the way most people do it. I’m just as guilty. But I’m also a realist. When I didn’t get into Yale Law, my absolute first choice, I knew why: I wasn’t good enough in that admissions cycle. PERIOD! Penn came through, as did some others. I settled on Penn, at the time barely a top 10 law school, and it hasn’t mattered. But make no mistake - I wanted to go to Yale, and Penn wasn’t somehow “better for me”, and I haven’t gone around since then saying, “I’m really glad I didn’t get into Yale. Penn was really a better fit for me.” It would be a lie.
@MiddleburyDad2
I agree there are standards of quality that are not subjective. Even so, an Ivy isn’t always superior by those objective standards.
It would be wrong to generalize students who don’t choose ivy schools as sour grapes. There have been, and will continue to be students who did in fact get into an ivy and chose not to go. Are Ivy schools prized? Yes. Are Ivy students the cream of the high school crop? Yes. Are those schools necessarily superior? No. And it’s not only the people who got rejected saying this.
Your “rationalizing” explanation sounds patronizing to me, but I’m hopeful that you did not intend to imply the anti-Ivy sentiment is entirely about being in denial of one’s limitations and hurt feelings about not making the cut.