@Pizzagirl - It may be harsh (that some doors will be closed) but it is also the reality of life. Other doors will remain open but some mistakes will make some opportunities disappear forever.
Look at one of the recent threads. The resident who beat up the cab driver while drunk. She was dropped from her residency program and may never be able to complete it. One moment in time can ruin all the best laid plans of a lifetime. Young people should learn that lesson early on.
Good example @TatinG,
My wife and I show our kids examples like these to instill into them the high cost of these mistakes. Another good example of flushing your future down the drain is the Yale shreiker, Jerelyn Luther.
@TatinG Certainly, mistakes close specific doors - some, perhaps, on a permanent basis. That does not mean we should instill that some mistakes cannot be overcome in the most general sense: that you can succeed and find meaning even if you make mistakes. More importantly, it should not stop us from fighting for a world in which so many doors are not closed, especially as, once again, youth from backgrounds that already disadvantage them are more likely to end up in that situation. Especially given how many of those barriers exist, it is also certainly fine to be proud of them. It takes a lot to grow and move beyond that.
I would also say that a resident committing violence while drunk is different than a teenager who makes a mistake. There is a signifcant gap in age and development.
I will also leave this link here: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2014-04-12/news/os-gang-member-honor-student-20140411_1_adult-prison-other-gang-members-little-havana
Yes, the juvenile brain has not matured. But that does not mean that a juvenile record doesn’t follow a person. A juvenile record can prevent enlisting in the military, getting into college and professional schools and obtaining certain jobs. I think many kids think it is hidden and cannot be found out. So they think it’s no harm, no foul. It isn’t.
That being said, yes, it is good that some juvenile offenders can move ahead despite their earlier mistakes.
"However, what some were responding negatively to was the idea that we should be “prouder” of the ones who made mistakes than of those who did not. We should be proud of both. "
I didn’t see any posts saying that WE SHOULD be prouder of one than the other. I said that I AM, and that doctors might be, too. I explained where I’m coming from, but I made no recommendation for others.
Remember that I am a professional, not a parent, and made a comparison to another kind of professional. I love my students, but they are my clients, not my flesh and blood. Parents are different from professionals seeking meaningful work. A lawyer hopes to face the challenge of a good double homicide; a CEO loves to turn around a company on its knees.
Throw as big a party as you want for the kids who do everything right. I’m pretty sure the parents of my Supreme Court superstar are thrilled to bursting. No one hopes that their child takes the harder path…and I can tell you from experience, the path of getting in trouble is the harder path, not the easier one, however it may look at the beginning. Succeeding at Harvard Law was a breeze compared to failing in high school.
@ams5796 My kids are going to a competitive school, but not an Ivey League school because we would not qualify for the amount of aid we would need to pay for it. However, a good friend of ours was left destitute after her husband passed away unexpectedly without any life insurance and few assets. She was worried about how she would pay for college, even community college. I knew about the aid packages for Ivey League schools and told her about it. Her daughter ended up going to Columbia on a full ride (that even includes books and room and board). Not only was she not stressed out about the application, she now does not need to stress out about how to pay for college either. The Ivey Leagues do change lives and should be commended for their generosity toward hard working underprivileged students.
@Totoro66 That’s a great story. Thank you for sharing it.
This thread about the low income twins who got admitted into 56 schools, w some schools offering generous awards, really hacked me off when posters knocked the schools for not being prestigious enough.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1884543-twins-offered-1-6-million-in-scholarships-after-getting-accepted-to-56-colleges-p1.html
Love this so much! Hope your daughter enjoys Susquehanna.
If a “professional” is sick of reading about people accomplishing difficult things in their field, it is time for them to consider another profession.
This attitude is really bad for all involved.
Funny. Do you think all schools are equally prestigious?
Why should anyone be hacked off by someone calling a rose a rose?
“If a “professional” is sick of reading about people accomplishing difficult things in their field, it is time for them to consider another profession.”
Wuh? I don’t understand.
@skyoverme replied
No one remotely suggested schools are equally prestigious.
Since the vast majority of students aren’t harvard material (especially students in socioeconomically disadvantaged communities) are you just going to discourage them from applying to college because their prospective schools aren’t posh enough for your tastes?
@lostaccount Your post caught my eye and made me laugh because the mantra at our house has always been " We may be smart , but we’re not Ivy League smart. And that’s OK" That’s a hard concept for many of our friends and family to understand . It has helped keep my son’s college search focused and realistic , and for that I am truly grateful.
carolinamom2boys I think your post reflects a misunderstanding of Ivy League admissions, honestly. I think it’s fine to apply to Ivy League schools with the right attitude, especially in light of the financial aid policies.
I don’t know what you mean by Ivy League smart. Humans don’t come in hierarchies of smartness. Students at Ivies aren’t superhuman. Ivy League schools try to assemble an interesting class, and the kids who contribute to that mix aren’t necessarily the ones with highest grades or scores: they met a benchmark and had something to contribute.
I am glad that your son is enjoying his college search without the crazy stress some suffer, but I would not want anyone discouraged from applying to an Ivy if that school was a great fit.
It is not helpful for kids to focus too much on super selective schools, but it also not helpful to avoid them either, when a student might actually enjoy attending.
@compmom I don’t have a "misunderstanding " of Ivy League admissions. I realize that there are many factors that go into Ivy League acceptances with grades being just one factor. I’ve watched on many threads on this very forum recounting rejections of students with seemingly perfect application “packages” and resumes. I know my circumstances in my family . We are a middle classed family with no hooks . My son doesn’t have perfect stats, although pretty commendable. My son had no desire to apply to any Ivy League schools, for that reason he didn’t apply to any. His grades and ECs were actually just as competitive as some that I’ve seen that were accepted. That being said, choosing what colleges to apply to is a personal and family decision . It shouldn’t be based on what others think is the “best” or most prestigious school . Contrary to what many think, not everyone wants to apply to selective schools , and that is OK. I in no way implied in my post that should be how everyone should approach the college search , it’s what works for my family. In the same respect , I shouldn’t be questioned about it either.
My response was really for others who are reading this thread. The phrase “not Ivy League smart” is what caught my eye and I did not want it to discourage others. I did not personally advocate for Ivies in my family either…we didn’t talk about colleges much at all…but the financial aid helped us immeasurably.
^^ That caught my eye too.
@carolinamom2boys, if your son didn’t want to apply to Ivies (for whatever reason) that’s totally understandable, but your post suggested that “Ivy League smart” is qualitatively different than regular “smart.” While that oftentimes is true, there are a lot of very smart kids in state flagships and other very good schools who were plenty “smart enough” to do the academic work at an Ivy but didn’t have that extra *sumthin’ sumthin’/i to make them competitive for an Ivy. Some go for it and apply to one or two, knowing full well they’re “reaches for everybody” and “almost impossible to gain admission to” for themselves, but concluding “nothing ventured, nothing gained.” Others recognize the long odds (and arduous process) and pass.
I think that’s the point @compmom was trying to make. It wasn’t a criticism, just a clarification.
I have several kids who have attended a range from Ivy to community college. I do not think of any of my kids as “smarter” than the other. I understand that people are proud of being realistic and not being part of the Ivy-hungry pack. I think it is great that your son is happy with what he is doing. But not everyone who attends does so for prestige. There are some great experiences to be had at Ivies just as there are at many other schools, and (again, sorry) the price can be right for some (70% at Harvard receive some sort of aid).
As I said I am not an Ivy booster by nature and actually wanted one of mine to go to our state U. rather than the Ivy he went to. I thought lower stress along with top curriculum in his area was a draw at the state U. For another one of mine, the Ivy was perfect and I am eternally grateful for the understanding this child received there when dealing with a major health issue- and, um the generous aid. So after the fact I have some feelings of loyalty I guess.
But the main point is, I don’t really believe in a hierarchy of “smart” or talent or quality of person or whatever and Ivy campuses do have a mix of kids, who have the ordinary problems everyone has, anxiety, depression, breakups, too much substance use, even trouble with math or writing.
This thread is about “golden kids” who get into multiple Ivies, and a counselor who is sick of the stories. These stories are human interest stories that are almost always about an immigrant or minority/low income background who overcame odds. Not exactly “golden kids.” There was also a book about a young woman who was paralyzed who attended Harvard. The point of theses stories isn’t really the college, it is the obstacle that was overcome. The media uses schools like Harvard to measure that ability to overcome.
A story about a kid who comes from the barrio or from Queens or is in a wheelchair who gets into a CTCL doesn’t have the same oomph for the media, but it should. The media deals in superficial content, often, because editors don’t give writers space to explain where Grinnell is and how great it is, and readers don’t have the patience to read that info either. The Ivies end up being used for shorthand for achievement against all odds.
If people are bothered by this, I think the focus should be on the resilience and hard work of these kids, not on the endpoint of the Ivy, but the takeaway for many is that an Ivy is somehow better than other colleges, which is just not true. People here on CC, including me for many years now, try hard to educate people on the quality of many schools, including the CTCL colleges, and steer the high school freshman who “dreams of Harvard” toward a healthier high school existence.
I don’t see why it has to be one way or the other here. Why can’t we be happy for both types of students?