NYC not an option for her, but thanks
i couldn’t agree more with @Lindagaf.
as a young adult who went through the process twice (i applied to some schools, took a gap year, then applied again), i understand why she values the name recognition a school could offer. it makes you feel special and provides gratification when someone knows how good of a school you attend is. however, it really is very arbitrary. you would be surprised by how many young people have never heard of brown, dartmouth, or columbia, think penn is a state school, and/or have never heard of washu, rice, emory, cmu, wake forest, etc. the list is continuous.
even when it comes to liberal arts colleges, very little know what amherst (“omg, UMass is such a good school!”), williams, swarthmore, wellesley, and pomona are, and they’re often considered the top five (at least according to us news, bleh).
the real people who know the name of your school (job recruiters, grad schools, etc.) will always matter the most, even if i do have to constantly tell regular people i attend GRINnell and not CORnell, lol.
Need to keep her motivated and interested . Choice of what she values is hers.
@gablesdad, My son (and I) visited15 colleges in the northeast (plus 2 in the midwest), mostly LACs (plus a few mid-sized privates and 1 megasized State U). I’ll comment further on Williams where he ended up, but first some general thoughts.
I would stress three commonalities:
ALL northeastern LACs lean left politically and socially, though some are more intensely activist.
ALL northeastern privates admit kids from prep schools and wealthy old-money families.
ALL northeastern colleges compete to matriculate top performing URMs and other diversity demographics.
From the experiences of my son and some close friends, my loose (very loose) groupings would be as follows.
Group 1 Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Skidmore, Conn College, Trinity (plus Kenyon)
Group 2 Swarthmore, Wesleyan, Bates, Haverford, Vassar, Bard (plus Oberlin)
I would put Dartmouth and Cornell in Group 1 and Brown and Columbia in Group 2, Otherwise to me the mid-sized privates are large enough to accommodate several personalities.
Assigning descriptors to groups of colleges is a dangerous game as the “eye of the beholder” plays a huge role in how we perceive small LACs. I don’t like to use “artsy” or “preppy” as both now imply lifestyles – not just educational background or extracurricular activities.
Loosely, I would say that Group 1 students are more active in sports and outdoorsy activities and that Group 2 students are more involved in political activism. But the overlaps constantly defy the points of differentiation. My son’s list comprised some from each column.
I would also like to comment on the negative descriptor “middle of nowhere.” Insular , rural campuses, like Williams, Hamilton, Kenyon are not in the middle of nowhere. They are in the middle of the countryside and are surrounded by great natural beauty – mountains, forests, rivers, lakes etc. Believe it or not, to some kids, access to nature is a plus.
Having grown up in the middle of enormous cities, my son assumed that he would choose an urban college, but while visiting something about rural campuses spoke to him and his top choices ended up being rural schools. Rural campuses aren’t for everyone and if this kind environment doesn’t float your daughter’s boat, then move on, no matter how much the school’s academic ranking may appeal. My observation of my son’s Williams classmates is that those that were happiest were those that chose Williams because of its location, not in spite of it.
“The arts” comprises a wide range of activities and students can be supporters of the arts without actually participating in them themselves. Williams definitely belongs on any list of arts friendly destinations, both for do-ers and spectators: three world-class art museums on or near campus, one of the best art history departments in the country (see the Williams’ museum mafia), 2 orchestras, multiple musical ensembles, The Williamstown Theater Festival, extraordinary art, theater and music performance facilities. And most importantly, participation that is accessible for all students, not just majors.
My son’s specific interests were in art studio and art history (ultimately architecture) but many of his classmates participated in art, music, theater and dance at Williams. Even though they mostly chose to pursue other majors and other career paths, the option to pursue the arts at Williams remains an important part of who they are.
Great classification @momrath . I think you’re mostly right. I’m not sure about political activism. My thought is that while they are certainly political and socially aware, actual activism isn’t a big factor at most of these schools. Middle of nowhere colleges are somewhere and have very high retention rates. Fiske Guide will show a lot of overlap with all of these schools.
OP, your daughter, at this stage, doesn’t have enough knowledge of what schools are worth considering…yet. Luckily, she’s only a junior. These ideas of hers are going to morph and change sooo much by the time she applies. Give her the tools with guidebooks and websites. I think all the colleges right now are offering virtual tours on their websites. She can look through their past activities to see what was going on on campus. College Facebook pages are good too, she can scroll back to see what pics reveal from the school year.
This topic comes up regularly, but name recognition is so regional and also limited to a pretty small group of people. Many people here on CC, for example, tend to be knowledgeable about colleges. Most CC’ers would agree that in the eyes of people who matter, a kid with a degree from Yale isn’t going to automatically going to be a better employee than a kid from Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, or Pomona. (Four LACs that are often regarded as top in the nation.)
An employer might also might realize that the experiences of the kids from Emory, Bates, Temple, Columbia and Harvard make all those applicants good choices for their program. (I happen to know that this is, indeed, true.)
My D attended an LAC, the name of which was always followed by its location because most people hadn’t heard of it. I’m from California. My parents attended USC. I am not joking when I say that in the world I grew up in, there were pretty much two colleges anyone who was anyone was interested in: USC and UCLA. I never knew about Penn (We Are!..?) or Brown, or Cornell, or any LAC until decades later, when I started helping my eldest prepare for college.
Luckily, she has your help too. I think the reason we are urging you to make her aware of all these other excellent colleges is because looking beyond the most famous names is going to give more possibilities. At her school she’s going to have excellent guidance, but it would be great if she was made aware of some of the schools mentioned here. Her counselor will certainly know of them.
And the counselor should help her craft a manageable list. The more apps to elite schools, the more work. If she applies to Brown, for example, I think she will have to do at least four supplemental essays, which will all have to be uniquely written for Brown. College Apps 101 is a class most seniors don’t know they will be taking.
Thanks @Lindagaf very thoughtful of you and everyone else, really appreciate it; I am sure she will engage with the GC over the next few months. Her school has a national reputation and sends graduates across the country, so I am sure she will look at a broad range. In our conversations with her about your input, we are already sensing a lot of exploration and self-discovery coming ahead and, frankly, that is what we were hoping to kickstart with your input. Special thanks for the super helpful short narratives and cool examples in the thread above. From my end, we can close the thread. Will stay tuned following your other threads!
@gablesdad Tufts= great town, few minutes from Boston, artsy, liberal, collaborative, friendly, beautiful campus…top 10ish in best food. High rank/selective.
Usually college advisors at prep schools don’t begin working with Juniors until around February. Up until then they are swamped with the seniors.
I’d look at bit more based on what she is interested in and then find that quirky school with an excellent reputation. We are also BS parents and don’t plan to leave it all to the guidance counselor to decide. Some of the comments here are off base.
Kids need to look at various schools IMO and be open to various inputs. They might find a school fits them best which they had never heard of, or didn’t think would be a match. The CG at your BS is not going to do the heavy lifting for any kid. Knowing what you want gets the best results.
I’d have 75% in the match ( not far reach) category and a handful of strong applications ready for the reaches. And another handful of safeties.
I don’t know the BS your kid attends but it’s likely the school can aid a lot in offering info on how many kids applied and who was accepted at each school. Even top BS tend to send more kids to some colleges than others. Ours sends more to Princeton and UPenn than Yale. And more to Stanford and U Chicago than Brown. Is that based on the kids or success rates? Hard to tell. But important to know.
Finally, in the middle of nowhere is a real thing. Lol. If you have ever lived in a town where it takes 30 minutes to get milk in a snowstorm you know this. I lived in Western MA and it’s the proverbial middle of nowhere. I also lived in a town for another 15 years that was similar. Trees yes, stores, no. No one is implying it’s a bad thing ( yes, people who live in these places LOVE nature) but before Amazon, it was unpleasant and inconvenient. With Covid, it now might be a plus!
Good luck.
How much would top-10 colleges make of URM and legacy in the current environment and in the context of an early app (she loves those already as she has been for alumni reunions but are the sort that are huge reaches for anyone)? Direct undergrad with strong alumni involvement (but no donation of libraries or science buildings). Could those overcome historical underperformance at a particular college by the prep school or is school historical performance a stronger indicator? Is it realistic to think of those being decisive without any debate or similar national or state championships in light of the hooks? Part of the exercise to identify “fit” alternatives is to relieve the pressure around the two legacy schools, and to communicate we would support whatever she chooses and gets, and to be as realistic and supportive as parents as possible while acknowledging as many of you have said that you can only end up applying to (and in these times visiting) so many…
I don’t think covid-19 necessarily changes a college’s long-range enrollment goals. But, this year did see fewer acceptances sent to international students, presumably for fear that there would be travel complications upsetting their enrollment management. I wouldn’t be surprised to see renewed interest in local talent, people whose families are within a day’s drive from campus.
Unfortunately, competitive male URMs are in shorter supply than competitive women URMs, especially at the LAC level. So, it’s kind of scary when you say that her school has some “historical” performance problems at certain places. Not sure what that means and its significance is a little above my pay grade. 
Did not mean much re historical performance. Naviance shows great acceptance rates, except for some oddities for which I am sure there is history I can get from GC.
While being a URM is a hook, it certainly does not translate into a near “auto-admit,” despite what you often read on CC. I would caution against focusing on that when trying to decided your D’s chances. For example, my H is an alum at a T10 LAC, and is still very active. Even though the college is trying to increase the number of URMs, they are also trying to diversify in other ways. First-gen, low income, URMs from under-represented geographic locations are seen as contributing more to diversity efforts than upper or middle class URMs from private schools or top-performing public school districts. And first-gen, low-income students from under-represented geographic areas are often seen on par with URMs when looking to “round out” a class. I have seen this at the LAC where I teach. Moreover, colleges are not just looking to check the “race box.” They are still looking for students that are a good fit and will thrive at the college. No one wants students leaving because they are unhappy or have a difficult time adjusting to the academic demands of the college. We want a high retention rate, and happy and successful students. Despite what CC will have you believe, admissions officers do not overlook other factors simply because an applicant is a URM.
In the end, being a URM is certainly a hook, but I wouldn’t overestimate its power. It’s one of the reasons posters on CC tend to think URMs are admitted in the first place, and devalue their acceptances into top schools. There is a false assumption that these students were “only” admitted because they are URMs, and if they were white they wouldn’t have stood a chance. Don’t buy into that narrative.
This analysis shows acceptance rates approaching 10% for black applicants to highly selective liberal arts colleges: https://www.jbhe.com/2020/02/black-first-year-students-at-nations-leading-liberal-arts-colleges-2019/.
Not unreasonable to work closely with your school college counselor, if truly a top independent school. Absent of their thoughts, I think you have plenty of schools, plenty of reaches and enough in-range and safer schools. I would expect to take your lumps, especially if not applying ED this season, but you will end up somewhere great.
Thanks for posting this @merc81. I know those stats from JBHE well. They publish an updated list each year around February. They even have a list for the ivies and T10. I had the link in a post early last year, but it was deleted because the thread became too contentious around issues of race and diversity. Several posters dismissed it anyway because they hadn’t heard of the journal and assumed it wasn’t reputable. (It is. Black professors and college admin know JBHE well.)
I showed D20 that list when she was looking at LACs because some of her friends kept telling her she had nothing to worry about. They all assumed she would get in to places they wouldn’t because she is Black. She started quoting stats from JBHE whenever someone would approach her with that nonsense. At one point it worked too well because she started getting discouraged about her chances at some places due to the lower acceptance rates for Black applicants.
Interesting. At many of these colleges, Black applicants have lower than average acceptance rates.
What was also interesting to me is that not only does Grinnell have a lower acceptance rate for Black students than their average, but their yield for black applicants is abysmally low (16%).
[aside]Grinnell severed its ties with the Posse Foundation in 2016, claiming that they are already able to achieve diversity without Posse. In 2016, the last year with Posse, Black students made up 5.1% of the incoming class, while in 2019 it was 4.3%, so I guess that they were wrong… [/aside]
IMO one has to read between the lines when schools leave partnerships, such as with Grinnell and Posse.
Posse Foundation does not require nominees to have financial need (so there are not only some middle class, but some upper class students who are selected to Posses each year), and/or be URMs, and/or be first-gen.
Schools are looking for low income and/or URMs and/or first gens, and Posse does not help them identify those students. This has led to several other schools beyond Grinnell, including Bowdoin and Denison, to sever their relationship with Posse as well.
As an aside, USNews uses the Carnegie classifications of higher ed which is definitely not arbitrary. I get your general point, but students at many LAC’s have the ability to conduct research at High Research universities. For example, Amherst students can hang out at UMass. Haverford, Bryn Mawr students can get involved in projects at Penn.
Or, at Wesleyan where they have a decades long track record of attracting taxpayer supported on-campus STEM research.