<p>hanna, it think you might have missed something</p>
<p>many people DO think rights are from the sky, God and the bible to be exact…that is their reference for laws, rights, justice, etc</p>
<p>When you have someone who wants to post the Ten Commandents places, but can’t even name them, or says that think those anti sodomy laws should still be on the books because the bibles says something somewhere about men no laying down with men, and that is how they justify what laws we should be governed by, yes, those people think freedoms, and rights are from the sky</p>
<p>Christianity has a horrible history of disctruction, killing all in the name of God. Interesting that people forget that</p>
<p>
Then to what degree is voting in Wisconsin a right in the sense a womans human right to have an abortion , or to free speech, or to associate.
Are human rights time sensitive? Or are they in the nature of being human and thus not a political fashion to be debated, abrogated or conferred?</p>
<p>Is it a human right to not where a hijab
or go to the beach nude? Where is the difference derived?</p>
<p>I ask this with the utmost sincerity, because it is not clear to me at all.</p>
<p>
Newmassdad, </p>
<p>Well, you are in for a world of hurt. There is barely a thread on cc that isnt in some way telling you how to live. We all do it–all the time; from political opinions and formal lobbying, to sex education in high school and the 10 Commandments in the court house. It is telling people how to live. Thats how it works in a vibrant democracy, I suppose–you, otoh, get to dissent and make a better case.</p>
<p>When I say that this entire thread is driven by anti-Christianism I mean to say it begins with the absolute hysteria resulting from the op. It winds its way into referring to Christianity as brutal and ugly into rationalizing Hitler and the Nazis behavior as being somehow driven by or pulled from their religious faith, to equating the behavior of Christian fundamentalist with those who would interpret their faith to mean they should kill as many human beings (read: Christians and Jews) as possibletheir only regret being they couldnt kill more. Vossron says they are–give or take a quibble or two–the same. </p>
<p>In the paragraph above, remove Christian and insert Jew and you have the Protocols of the Elders of Zion writ large and on cc. For that matter you could easily shoe-horn a number of posts into that hate-filled screed.</p>
<p>Of course, nothing, in modern times (other than in a couple of African countries and in the Far East) comes close to the hatred suffered under the banner of anti-Semitism (also excepting the atheistic regimes of Stalin and Mao), but the rhetoric approaches it because it is hateful. Moreover, much that is today called anti-Semitism is not even as harsh as what we can read in this thread. </p>
<p>So yes, it comes from a visceral desire to impugn the faith of a great many Americans. It is true that they hail from the majority faith
but in what way does it make it less hateful?</p>
<p>.</p>
<p>Greybeard,</p>
<p>Way to finesse a post [#109], you wily bare-footer!</p>
<p>It is interesting that we talk about the MAJORITY faith…</p>
<p>So if I remember my Constituion correctly, wasn’t a bit of it about the Majority not taking away the rights or impugning the rights of the Minority…i think that was in there somewhere, and was kind of important…but I could be wrong!!!</p>
<p>I never impugned the faith, I just don’t want the faith of some to be forced on me through laws, etc.</p>
<p>Hateful…not…concerned…yes…a very big difference, but I thnk you already know that…</p>
<p>When did anyone hear say, being a Christian is bad or stupid or wrong…or evil…no one…what is being said is that basing laws on one faith, and actually a pretty narrow interpretation at that, is not a good idea</p>
<p>Let us just say we use the idea that black and whites should never be together, much less married, that was justified by some as biblcally based…so do we use their idea for laws, or what about that its okay to hit your kids, some religion practices say thats okay, so do we use their intepretation for our laws…I think you get the point</p>
<p>When you talk about faith, you must be very careful…is it the faith of the people that think the world is about 10000 years old cause that is what the bible tells them and that they want people visint our national parks to know that?</p>
<p>Its a small thing, but when it comes to religion and government, nothing is small, on either side</p>
<p>“Vossron says they are–give or take a quibble or two–the same.”</p>
<p>A quibble or two. They are “the same” in that both sides use religion to justify killing. Both sides are killing innocents; by numbers only, I <em>think</em> Bush, et al, is ahead of Bin Laden, et al; please correct me if I’m wrong, and we can debate the signifcance. These two names are signifcant because Bush started the Iraq war in response to Bin Laden’s actions (i.e., Bush would not have invaded Iraq if 9/11 had never happened; or does something think he would have?). The tragedy for the Iraqi innocents is the lack of connection between Iraq and 9/11. The Iraqi innocent victims have paid the price of Bin Laden’s innocent victims.</p>
<p>Vossron, then we can now say</p>
<p>George Bush = Osama Bin Laden? </p>
<p>Your thought has cetainly developed since last you posted. Can we also say that </p>
<p>Churchill = Hitler?</p>
<p>does</p>
<p>Roosevelt = Stalin?</p>
<p>…probably not, since Hitler and Stalin were not known to pray for guidance before they acted, FDR and Churchill, and apparently, Bush were (heard Jimmy Carter was prone to pray as well…I’ve actually seen Clinton pray for guidance).</p>
<p>Mao…Pol Pot, nah.</p>
<p>
but yet the Iraqis say they are better off now than under Saddam … go figure.</p>
<p>
Then here is my advice to you ms missy, you vote for your swell candidates and others will vote for theirs. Your candidate, as well as any other candidate who wins, will have to act constitutionally… </p>
<p>…if they don’t…well, that’s already been thought of; they will go before the Supreme Court–a separate branch of government altogether–and work it out there. It works like a charm from what I hear. </p>
<p>However, it must be said that the whole system seems to keep the poor little radicals just a-spinnin’ 'round the hamster wheel. They want what they want and they want it now no matter what anyone else wants or says
so there! rrrhhhh!!! </p>
<p>And you know why? Because they are always right and the rest of the country is always just too dumb to “get it.” That’s right! They just don’t get it…and nothing makes the little wheel-runners more hysterical than that.</p>
<p>As to your visceral anti-Christian bias, I suppose it is better than anti-black, anti-Semitic, anti-women, anti-gay, anti-Muslim, anti-anti etc. You ought to thank god for that one
it could have been much worse–you would have been in a heap of pain otherwise. I guess this just proves god loves you CGM. You’re one lucky girl!</p>
<p>and we know that the majority of Iraqs have said this how…I am serious…I like surveys…and would like to see these</p>
<p>lets ask the mother who buried her whole family, the wife who under our watch, has no clue where her son is</p>
<p>maybe in comparrison, on the 1-10 scale, they are “happier” but on our watch, it is a flaming mess, no denying that</p>
<p>I would have expected more from our leaders and our presence there, some semblence of order…and not the deniel of the civil war</p>
<p>what you don’t get, missy, is that it takes people to protect the constituion, and if people just sed, eh, others would whittle away at it</p>
<p>right denied is the same as laws made to take away the rights</p>
<p>and don’t call me missy, you ungrateful girl</p>
<p>good thing you gonna are able to vote, thank all those fiesty women for that, good thing you can marry anyone you want, thank all those uppity folk</p>
<p>thank your God for uppity cranky people for your rights, cause ungraciousness on your part will be your loss</p>
<p>As it is, I can’t vote…thanks anyhow, though (I feel like I’m at the Academy Awards–thank you, oh thank you!). : ) </p>
<p>I’ll put my money on the sane and patient, in any case…what can I say; it’s just the way I’m built.</p>
<p>Which Iraqis feel they are better off? The women who must obey sharia law now, stay home, covered? The ones who must risk kidnapping or honor killing? The ones who can no longer work or go to school?</p>
<p>Seems one half of the population got a very bum deal…that is, the ones who are still alive to talk about it.</p>
<p>FS, don’t be ridiculous, you will be 18 soon, I am sure, so you know exactly what I meant</p>
<p>And by able, I mean female, and good thing in this country you don’t have to be covered from head to foot for fear of being beaten or killed</p>
<p>Oh you are not a citizen? Or you haven’t registered YET, cause you can you know, in some states you can register before you are 18, so you can vote WHEN you are 18?</p>
<p>So, k, if not a citizen, cool, enjoy your freedoms here, because many others earned and died for them, and if a citizin, go register please</p>
<p>allmusic,</p>
<p>I posted this yesterday on the other thread:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’d say that is a lot more than 50% wouldn’t you? Funny how people here just “know” how other people think.</p>
<p>FF, that link is broken, but do you have a non-partisan site with said info? I will be happy to look at it, and then share my own partisan sites with you, that show a very different picture of Iraqi contentment.</p>
<p>However, I am still reeling over agreeing with you on another thread, so I may not want to spoil that little party just yet.</p>
<p>This will take more than a quick perusal, even if I do read quickly, but I realize I have seen much of this data before. I don’t think it paints nearly the rosy picture you do.</p>
<p>For example, (and there seem to be many more such examples):</p>
<p>“Iraqis believe that many aspects of their lives would improve were US-led forces to leave Iraq.”</p>
<p>“Interestingly, there is a fair amount of
consensus that if US-led troops were to
withdraw there would be substantial
improvement in the performance of the
Iraqi state. Overall, 73% think that there
will be an increase in the willingness of
factions to cooperate in Parliament,
including majorities of Kurds (62%),
Sunnis (87%) and Shia (68%). Sixty-
seven percent assume that there will be
an increase in the availability of public
services such as electricity, schools and
sanitation (Sunnis 83%, Shia 63%, Kurds
54%). Sixty-four percent assume that
crime will go down (Sunnis 88%, Shia
66%)”</p>
<p>And yes, while the Shia and Kurds seem more sanguine, what about the 93% of Sunnis, who feel that the country is going in the wrong direction?</p>
<p>I will find you info from Iraqi women. I have read numerous studies and interviews.</p>
<p>“what about the 93% of Sunnis, who feel that the country is going in the wrong direction?”</p>
<p>Well, duh! If you had polled the white South Africans or Rhodesians after their ability to dominate the majority was terminated they would have said their country was going in the wrong direction as well.</p>
<p>I never said that this survey presents a completely pro-Bush rosy picture. But, the fact that it does show the good as well as the bad tells you that it has an element of fairness in it. With that comes the indisputable realization that the people who had been oppressed by Saddam, despite their current hardships, feel that they are better off now than before the war.</p>