College Musings: Being a Nerd, Daughter an Athlete

Parent Cafe
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<p>So…through this wonderful luck of the draw, my older d. is a geeky, inward-looking intellectual musician-type, and my younger one is a piano-phenom, extraordinarily sociable, athlete who never opens a book by choice. Neither my wife nor I (we are both semi-nerdy couch potatoes) were prepared for this one, which has been WONDERFUL because we’ve learned all kinds of things (and ways of being) that would never have been open to us in any other way. We’ve received an education. WHo says children don’t choose their parents?</p>

<p>Now, I don’t want to give you the impression that my younger one is dumb. No, she works hard, and when it comes to academics, test scores, etc. she is well above average. Top 30% or so. (If you met her, you’d probably peg her there, too - she is nothing if not transparent.) She’s also going places! She is great with other people (especially adults), endearing, caring, fun to be around - frankly, if I had to guess, she’s going to go far in life, and I actually worry about her (I do have the requisite license) much less than I do about my intellectually gifted older one. But she isn’t Harvard material (and she thinks of it as a decidedly inferior place anyway, lacking a gymnastics team!)</p>

<p>So we are just beginning to think about the college thing. It feels too early (she’s a 10th grader), but it is NOT too early for potentially recruited Div. I athletes (she’s a gymnast). We’ll see of course how that pans out. At any rate, I go out to the websites of the various Div. I gymnastics schools, and one finds out immediately (or so it seems) that female gymnasts tend to be more academically motivated than, say football players (overgeneralization, of course, but that’s the impression.)</p>

<p>But, I was struck (here comes another overgeneralization) by another thing: the higher ranking the school (academically), the more likely (it seemed) that the student would be majoring in something like “exercise science” or something equivalent. The lower ranking ones seemed to have more pre-meds, or international relations, or Spanish majors. Just an impression.</p>

<p>Now my d. conceives of herself as a business/accounting major (and there are reasons why this makes a lot of sense for her, even if it is totally foreign to me - could change, of course.) I am clearly biased against “exercise science” majors. Silly in some ways. There is clearly more demand for “exercise science” majors – future physical therapists, chiropractors, phys. ed. teachers, personal trainers, folks who run gyms, camp directors, etc. than there is for lawyers (they may also do more good for the world - but that’s another thread), or for international relations specialists. But somehow, even though my kid is a gymnast, I am educationally prejudiced against her hanging with a bunch of exercise science majors. LOL! </p>

<p>I’m not sure what my question is. Maybe, those of you who have had Div. I athletes in school (especially girls), what were the academic support services like for them, and did they take advantage of them? What were the peer groups like? Did they get a reasonable education out of it - did it get them where they wanted to go? What else should I be thinking about (if anything)?</p>

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<p>I am a D1 athlete at a not-so-highly-ranked school. It’s true that there are a lot of PT/AT/etc majors but I think it jumps out at you more when you’re looking at the roster than talking to people on the team. Most freshmen have the experience of talking to upperclassman and hearing, “oh, we’re in the same major” or “oh, I was in your program for two years but I switched because…” and there’s a pretty wide spectrum represented…graphic design, history, criminal justice, business… The other interesting thing is that health sciences are some of the best programs at my school so it’s pretty cool to have someone develop muscle soreness or pull something and have a student and teammate who’s already there at practice know exactly what’s wrong, what exercises would help, and what should be avoided.</p>

<p>Our support services (and we’re a school without a huge athletics budget) include mandatory study hall for freshmen – the study hall room has free computer and printer use, additional academic advising (but only as it relates to athletics), and a separate tutoring system from the school’s regular one.</p>

<p>I think the stereotypical “dumb jock” image does exist in part but it’s very limited, and mainly holds in football and men’s basketball. I see football players in study hall reading books like “the History of Exercise.” I think in sports that are on a lower level in high school students learn to focus on academics as well. We have a good number of 4.0 GPA’s on our team. The student-athlete support services people always say the focus is on being a student first, athlete second, and the support is to make us good enough students that we can give good focus to athletics.</p>

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<p>Thanks for your reply. Can I ask some more personal questions, knowing that you will only answer those you are comfortable with? What is your sport? (and the school, if you mind sharing). And your major? Do you live in an environmental segregated from other students? Do you like that? Is alcohol use greater in this environment than in the school as a whole? Are you encouraged to pursue certain majors and not others? Do any athletes ever take a semester abroad, or pursue outside internships? Gosh, I’ve got so many! (and I’m sure, when we start visiting schools, we’ll ask about these then, but it’s great to get a student’s perspective, and maybe to figure out what other questions we should be asking.)</p>

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<p>mini, I PM’d you</p>

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<p>mini-I posted in another thread about a friend of the family who was a recruited D1 gymnast. She is a high caliber student and was interested in majoring in chemical engineering. More than one coach told her that with the committment required to compete on a top level D1 team, it would be highly unlikely that she would be successful in completing a chem eng degree. There just would not be enough hours in the day. They advised her to consider changing to a less demanding major or look to a lower level D3 school. After a lot of soul searching, she decided to pursue her chem eng degree at her top choice D1 UC school and let the gymnastics go. She is a happy freshman and has found plenty of activities to join to fill in her spare time. </p>

<p>I think a lot depends on the school, sport, and major involved. Some combinations work better than others as time obligations differ for each sport and school. The trick is to find the right combination for each student/athlete. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Random side note: “Exercise science” doesn’t allow you to be a chiropractor any more than being “pre-law” allows you to indict someone. Chiropractors usually have about four years of post-undergrad study to get their D.C. degrees; physical therapists (I believe) often go through 6-year programmes to get their certifications.</p>

<p>Anyway… you might find that, even at DIII schools, the “jocks” aren’t as good as the other students - I know people at your beloved alma mater who joke about dropping off the team - so they get the degree without needing great SAT scores or sacrificing their lives to sports.</p>

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<p>Oh, I don’t have to worry about “chem-eng”! (And, yes, I know about chiropractors, and etc. I used to work for the state board of health, and helped set their educational requirements. It’s rather a question of career aspirations.)</p>

<p>Believe me, I know about “jocks” at my alma mater. :wink: But I think it is encouraging that they would be willing to drop their sports to get their degrees without sacrificing their lives! LOL! (Not so hard either - to graduate with a C average at a school that prides itself on its low drop out rate - which is basically true at all the “top” schools - doesn’t require rocket scientists. I have stories…)</p>

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<p>Mini
Mine is not a jock but she will be living amongst them come January. Post Katrina the Tulane students were put in an on campus apartment and now those who are staying on at the host school are moving into the freshman dorms. My D was placed on a section of a floor that is home to the freshman female gymnasts and the male lacrosse players. Her Tulane roommates and neighbors were all serious students with high gpa and sat scores who took school seriously. We will see how it is with the athletes. She doesn’t seem concerned. She already knows that to be most effective she studies in the library.
I let you know how it goes.</p>

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<p>Thanks! Let me be clear: in my experience, which is limited but there are lot of them in my workplace, top athletes work very, very hard, and tend to be very focused. Far more, in fact, than my intellectually oriented friends. The reason for this is simple: the measurements used to define success are, or at least tend to be, objective ones, and they are motivated by external challenges. One can’t skirt by on charm or glibness or one’s “wits”. This is especially true for individual performance sports, including those that require precision (diving, gymnastics, etc.) I’m just trying to get a sense of the kinds of questions one asks to ensure that a total school experience for an athlete can be a good one.</p>

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<p>mini, is she likely to be recruited? I’m not familiar with gymnastics but the female student/athletes we know were all heavily recruited. Two at Princeton - one for soccer and one for tennis. One at UCLA for soccer. Also an acquaintance, at Univ. of Portland for soccer (fabulous player who has won just about every possible award). One at Univ. of Lousiana for volleyball (had offers from six other schools). The Princeton tennis player has graduated, did very well academically and is now applying to law schools. All of the other girls are still in school and are taking a variety of types of degrees. The one at Princeton is an excellent student, the others would be described as good students, in my opinion. I’m sorry I can’t help you with the kinds of questions one asks but I do know that these girls who were good academic students as well as talented athletes, had and have had very good college experiences and have been able to balance both athletics and academics.</p>

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<p>Likely to be recruited (provided her current injury heals properly). It would be a stretch to call her a “scholar-athlete”.</p>

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<p>

Mini – the son of a very close friend (not a super academic young man, but lots of personal charm) got a degree in Athletic Training. Since we tend to be the book/couch potato sort, this was foreign territory for me, but has a happy ending. Upon graduation, he was hired as a sales rep for a major pharmaceutical company and seems to be quite successful. In fact, he’ll probably have a more lucrative career than many kids I know who are more academically inclined. So, for what it’s worth, it might be nice to have a business tycoon in the family.</p>

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<p>mini, look on the last page or so of the Congrats Thread-- someone posted whose D was recruited by Cornell for gymnastics. Could have good info for you.</p>

<p>As always, I will put in a plug for a good D3 program-- perhaps there’s a school where the academic fit is just right, and where your D can be a star, with less pressure…</p>

<p>My D is slightly over her head academically at the school she attends. While her SATs were very close to the median for the school, her academic preparation (I now see) was not on par with most of her peers. (She went to public HS in part to have a very high level of athletic competition, and I don’t think enough was expected to achieve an A there.) </p>

<p>Luckily she is smart and scrappy. I think athletes generally respond well to pressure and challenges. She could always be counted on to play her best when it was all down to the last match and the fate of the team rested on her shoulders. Similarly, she has risen to the challenge of her school and after a bit of a rocky start has a solid B average for 1st semester-- which I expect will only improve next semester now that she has the hang of school.</p>

<p>My D is not clear on her future career path; I have just encouraged her to learn how to think well and write well and to explore all areas of possible interest.</p>

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<p>mini…Are you trying to control the intellectual leanings of your extrovert D’s college social groups? Ha ha! Hold out your hand for a cyber smack.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Extroverts tend to have a wide range of social groups. I would bet money that you and your W have inculcated this value in your D too. Am I right?</p></li>
<li><p>A highly sociable child is likely to be a keen reader of social cues; ie your D will not suffer fools–even if they are on the same team. She will differentiate. </p></li>
<li><p>As long as she is in a diverse, intellectual environment (most any university or college), she will find her people. Do you like her people now? Chances are you will like her people in college too.</p></li>
<li><p>As you know, your days of control are numbered. Put that anxiety in a box with all the other memories and store it in a mental compartment somewhere. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>That’s my adivce–feel free to ignore! ;)</p>

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<p>LOL! I control so little now! (and I like it that way - she doesn’t even sleep at home 2-3 nights a week, as she has other adult friends who have “adopted” her as well.) I’m just trying to figure out what kinds of questions to be asking when the recruiting starts.</p>

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<p>Mini, my D is completing her senior year as a D1 athlete at a private U ranked somewhere around the 50’s - and she’s finishing two separate degrees, four minors, and the premed core. </p>

<p>Academic support has been fantastic in my opinion - freshmen are assigned an academic advisor, they’re required to meet once a week, and freshmen athletes are also required to be in (monitored) study hall ten hours each week. From sophomore year forward, the coaching staff will send the student back to required study hall and academic advisor weekly meetings any time the gpa falls below a 3.0, and there are constant competitions between all the sports to see which teams rank the highest gpas. Tutors are assigned at no charge - all the athletes have to do is request them at the start of a semester. D used them for some of the tougher classes (organic chem, etc.) - not that she cannot do the work herself, but rather a tutor accelerates the process. </p>

<p>Beyond academic support, there’s all sorts of material support - sports wardrobes including shoes issued new each year, free laundry service, technology support, especially when the team travels, cash (per diem) for meals, free massages, free health care, a sports psychologist for performance plateau issues, and even coaching for media situations - they actually get trained on how to talk to reporters. Plus all the team activities and social benefits. </p>

<p>My biggest concern is how my D will adjust when the four years are over, and all the support goes away - I’ve asked her about how she plans to transition out, and she said that she will divert her energies to grad school or med school search and applications, plus try out a few other activities on campus that she hasn’t been able to explore yet - this works because she will graduate at the end of her fifth year (owing to the two degrees). </p>

<p>It’s hard to say how to select schools - my D was recruited, so it was more a matter of reacting, plus the coach was new, so there really wasn’t a lot of history. </p>

<p>As far as the quality of her education - I can’t judge that quite yet, because I do not know much about her fields of study (art history and biochem, with minors in chemistry, religion, sociology and classical antiquities). I’m guessing that we won’t really know until we see what happens with grad school applications, or if she enters the workforce. My guess would be that her gpa has taken a bad hit (barely over 3.0) not so much because of her sport but because of the other ECs she has…</p>

<p>The only real piece of advice I can offer is make sure your D uses the “broken leg” standard (that’s a term I read in an article about Ivy league athetic recruiting) - your D should make sure she really, really likes the school if she decides not to participate in her sport. D has so many friends that were on various teams in high school, and joined their collegiate teams, only to quit during freshman year - either they simply became very interested in other activities, or they didn’t like the coaching staff, or they lost interest in their sport suddenly, etc. So when choosing, see if your D still likes the school(s) if gymnastics is not part of the package - would she still be very happy there for four years?</p>

<p>D’s school doesn’t have a gymnastics team, otherwise I’d send you the link.</p>

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<p>mini - competing at the highest level of Div. 1 athletics while taking and doing well in a challenging, bona fide curriculum is not easy. It is by far and away the most difficult thing I have ever done. I was essentially a professional athlete (on scholarship so no freedom to ratchet down practice, etc.) and yet also strove to do well in school (ended up in top 1/3 of the class or so double majoring in econ and history). It was more than just time management (although that was exceedingly important) - fighting bone jarring fatigue from practicing twice a day was a major obstacle. I went to a top 5 or 6 USNWR rated school - and since the Ivies don’t give scholarships - you can pretty much guess where I went. I had little social life - but did get to travel quite a bit and knew a lot of folks in athletic circles - something that continues to this day even though I am in one of the prototypical professions. In any event, I can see why many athletes default to an exercise science major - it fits in with the lifestyle, and offers more efficiencies than the pursuit of a prototypical “pure” or “mainstream” academic curriculum. I say this not to discourage your daughter (and gymnasts do empirically have better focus on academic matters than most - it is the nature of the sport to learn to focus intensely), but to inform you what may lie ahead if you look to a Div. 1 school. By the way, in the interest of disclosure, my twin brother, an All American in the same sport, went to a very good state school with one of the best athletic departments in the nation (their sports gear is in every sports store in the land). It was not, however, generally as competitive in terms of the intellectual acumen of its students as the school I attended, and he remains likely one of their few All American athletes with Phi Beta Kappa honors - and went on to get a Phd in econ. He says he could never ascertain why I chose to go to a school where the academic competition was so intense all of the time, especially given our time demands. He could float in many classes because he was at the top end right away in terms of intellect and prior preparation. But in the end I don’t have any regrets - competitive athletes are generally much tougher mentally than their non-athlete counterparts and learn valuable lessons from competition - I would just be careful not to bite off more than can be reasonably chewed. Remember, your daughter will want to succeed in her sport - and if she doesn’t, that will affect her - look for the place that affords balance where she can succeed in both.</p>

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<p>“In any event, I can see why many athletes default to an exercise science major - it fits in with the lifestyle, and offers more efficiencies than the pursuit of a prototypical “pure” or “mainstream” academic curriculum. I say this not to discourage your daughter (and gymnasts do empirically have better focus on academic matters than most - it is the nature of the sport to learn to focus intensely), but to inform you what may lie ahead if you look to a Div. 1 school.”</p>

<p>Actually, this was part of my point. I saw many more “exercise majors” at the top academic schools than at the lower ranked ones, and I was musing that this might be a reason to avoid them. (Doesn’t matter for my d. - she is NOT a scholar-athlete in any case, even though she can be studious when needed.) Anyhow, your school doesn’t even offer what she is looking for to undergrads. Your brother’s school is the kind I am trying to understand more clearly.</p>

<p>(And, yes! balance is the key…)</p>

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<p>Mini, based on the experiences of cildren of friends, I think your observations are spot on. It is tough, even at the lower ranked schools, but more academic majors are slightly more doable at the lower schools. Athletes tend to be segregated almost totally from the general population, except for classes and housing (I’m talking “minor” sports here, one friend’s daughter was an equestrienne), and they have special study halls.
In fact this girl’s experiences might have some bearing - equestrian at a DI school, very high academics, and stats - got a number of scholarships outside the athletic money, coach’s dream - fulfills Title IX with only part money from AD. I think she may be majoring in math or even engineering - I know that it is sci/math related. She was doing well with the balancing act, but the traveling was killing her - being riding, she had to travel all over the country, plus had to travel out to the ring to practice. Also, when she got to school, the coaches switched her event, and she began training for a type of riding that she had done little of before. She also was riding more events at each meet than usual. Finally, she became sick, after a few rounds of antibiotics and team doc saying she was OK to go, while she was calling parents sicker and sicker every time - the parents intervened (evidently a big no-no during competition season). In the end, she dropped her scholarship early in training for her second riding season. Last I heard about 2 months ago, the coach had asked her to come back for one very specific event that is her specialty, to help the overall competitiveness of the team.
All these things were challenges for her (and we’re just talking about horseback riding - not exactly your big money, big splash events, which gymnastics can be at some DI schools) - maintaining health when the team doc pushes you to go, travelling, “taking one for the team”, loneliness.</p>

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<p>mini-
DD is a freshman, was recruited as a D1 athlete. Was a level 8/9 as of 7th grade and then switched to diving and swimming which is now her college sport. Her gym coach had attended BYU on an athletic gymnastic scholarship and had been an olympic alternate just a few years before so we knew what DD would be looking at, athletically, socially and career-wise. She thankfully had never been injured so her transition to a new sport was easier than expected.</p>

<p>And yes she ran into difficulty when trying to pursue her sport in conjunction with her major (arch). Some schools, even our local ones were quite clear, no way could she be an athlete and an arch major. One or the other. Other schools had great programs but with so-so coaches. And in a dangerous sport (dive) so-so coaches end up with banged-up athletes. Others had awesome coaches and no programs AT ALL and she could just “pick a major, any major will do”.</p>

<p>So she 1)turned down an ivy, 2)turned down a fun, great coach and went with a much lower-ranked OOS with an academic scholarship, her desired major, a coach who transferred at the last minute from another powerhouse and where they let her do both. The money isn’t tied to her sport, so she loves doing it all the more and she isn’t struggling academically. She has tremendous support from the athletic department, tutors, writing seminars, registration priority (AD does it for you), tremendous athletic facilities and has a double dorm room for her single! The differential on the single is small and since she hosts recruits the athletic dept. helps out. </p>

<p>If you want to pm me Mini I will help as much as I can.</p>

<p>In return I will pest you about her younger bro and his pending college choices!!!</p>

<p>Kat</p>