college, prestige, and life (plus wisdom)

Parent Cafe
1

<p>Hi parents. </p>

<p>I need some perspective that I’m not sure I can get from anyone my age. As I’m sure many of you are employers, employees, parents, people older than me, etc, you must have some perspective on how much a degree from an institution can make or break a career… or even how it influences the first few years of post collegiate life. </p>

<p>I go to a top 25 LAC, I’m a sophomore, have a 4.0 GPA and all the stuff that goes along with it. I’ve been accepted to study abroad at oxford next year. I’m editor of my paper, etc. </p>

<p>My parents are putting a lot of pressure on me to transfer to an ivy… . actually, so are my friends (many of whom are at ivies). I still have time to apply to cornell (deadline is march 15). But I’m fairly happy where I am. The people aren’t all that interesting or engaging… but I’m recieving what I think is a top notch education.</p>

<p>Sorry this is so long.</p>

<p>I just want to know how much it’s going to affect me if I choose to forsake an ivy league degree. I’m a sophomore, so this is really my last chance to ever do it if I’m going to. I’ve struggled with this for the past year and still can’t decide.</p>

<p>Will it stand in the way of future jobs and any sort of future “happiness” – if one can even begin to quantify something like that as such.</p>

<p>Would some parents with a bit more perspective than I weigh in?</p>

<p>Thanks so much.</p>

2

<p>A few phrases stand out (for me) in your post: </p>

<p>“top 25 LAC”… 4.0 GPA "…“receiving what I think is a top notch education”… Based on those two things alone, I would say that you will be no better off in terms of future jobs. Many people think an “Ivy” opens doors; I believe that is highly overrated (and I have an “Ivy-type” set of credentials myself - Wellesley, Stanford, UCBerkely). Yes, some folks are awed by the Ivy credential; yes, there can be an “old boy” network. But you can and will find the same network of your current LAC’s alums, should you choose. After one job (at the most), your performance in your field will be the determining factor in your future, not what school’s name is on your resume.</p>

<p>“study abroad next year”… “editor of school paper”… You don’t say so, but I am inferring that you are excited by these opportunities. Another argument against transferring.</p>

<p>“fairly happy where I am”… “people aren’t that interesting or engaging”… These lead me to want a little more digging deeper. Is your being only “fairly” happy due to the fact that parents/friends create the feeling that you couldn’t possible be happy where you are? Or are these phrases clues that you really would like a change? (I’m guessing not, or you would have acted before now). Also, If people aren’t interesting or engaging at your top 25 LAC, what makes you think they’ll be more interesting and engaging at an Ivy (I know your parents think they will be and that you can forever hear stereotypes saying they will be), but I’m wondering why people around you right now are not interesting or engaging.</p>

<p>“parents… putting a lot of pressure… so are my friends” … “I have time to apply to Cornell” These make me think that you really don’t have an interest in transferring. You haven’t started the app. You only list Cornell because it’s the one Ivy remaining whose deadline hasn’t passed (not a great way to choose a school). </p>

<p>I think you are just afraid to let the opportunity go by - now that it is the last minute - because you are afraid you’ll miss out on something that <em>someone else</em> thinks you should have. I get that; I really do. But I think you can let it go. I don’t think the desire is innate with you.</p>

<p>I could be wrong; that’s why I pulled out phrases that go both ways. My bottom line suggestion is for you to take a look at this approach to making tough decisions: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=51596[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=51596&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Pretend I told you that it is TOO LATE. You slept through two weeks and it is now March 16! Too late to apply. Would you be relieved? Alternatively, suppose I told you that you have just been ejected from your current school but - no problem - Cornell says you can come. Would you be relieved in that case? Test your own gut and emotional reactions to these scenarios. It might help you become comfortable with what <em>you</em> want. The parental and friend pressure is weighing on you now. But you are right to follow your own heart and mind. Let’s just be sure you’re comfortable with what that is.</p>

3

<p>jmmom-</p>

<p>thanks so much for your thoughtful response. much of what you said is right on point. I -am- afraid to let the opportunity go by… </p>

<p>in high school, i didn’t apply myself and barely made b’s… i was even expelled junior year… yet somehow i still made it to a decent school, and now somehow am at the top of my class. </p>

<p>i think a large part of it is a newfound awareness of my potential, and a desire to somehow excise the past and claim a new, ‘better’ identity for myself. </p>

<p>even writing this now, it feels a bit foolish, and perhaps a desire stemming from the wrong reasons. i think i know that job prospects won’t change all that markedly… hell, they might decrease when i’m not the biggest fish anymore…</p>

<p>but i can’t shake the feeling that peers here are few and far between… i’ve tried to reach out to people, i’m on student government and the newspaper, places one would assume would be bastions of insight, creativity, and wit… </p>

<p>but they’re not. they lack people like me (and i mean that in an entirely not arrogant way). </p>

<p>i’m just confused… i tried your decision rubric, and i’ve tried the gut test as well… they just don’t help, somehow.</p>

<p>too much of my anxiety is based on experience at what missed opportunitys and screw ups can do to one’s future… i guess i just can’t focus on the good without feeling inadequate… whatever that means.</p>

<p>anyway, this was a bit of a rant, but it was a theraputic rant. thanks for your insight and your time.</p>

<p>-bulgakov</p>

4

<p>I think a lot of your anxiety is just from not “knowing”. You are very successful and reasonably happy where you are, and there is no guarantee that you would be happier or as successful at Cornell. The people there might not be what you expect either. Something must have kept you from filling out the applications in spite of your internal debate over the past year. IMO, the only reason to transfer would be if you truly felt that it would be a life-changng opportunity. Once you decide, don’t look back! You can drive yourself crazy with “what if?”</p>

5

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<p>But remember two things, kiddo. (1) You are no longer screwing up. (2) Every fork in the road, every choice you make, every opportunity you take up… will leave other options un-taken. That is part of life. It’s like lkf says, you can drive yourself crazy with “what if.” You have made a good place for yourself where you are. You are doing well. There is no perfect. Don’t let the “perfect” be the enemy of the good. Allow yourself to enjoy the successful college life you have created for yourself. I know it’s harder with the pressures from others; I regret that for you. But, at least within yourself, don’t keep debating whether you might be missing something. Yes, you are missing something. And if you transfer, you will be missing something too. Maybe that is the “wisdom” part you are seeking.</p>

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<p>My advice is 1. apply to Cornell. You said you were happy when you visited there, and you have colorable reasons to consider transferring. Then, 2. find a therapist/counselor/mental health professional (first try student health at your college) who can help you explore why you seem to have such difficulty making up your mind and such difficulty dealing with inevitably conflicting opportunities and advice, as well as help you discover how better to handle such situations.</p>

<p>The insight that you gain from a therapist/counselor in the next few months can IMO help you make the real decision in the Spring. IMO, the insight you may gain is likely to be far more important to your future life than any unique benefit arising from Cornell, Oxford, or Trinity.</p>

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<p>Wow, I am so impressed with jmmom’s response. The only thing I can add is, if you do seek some counseling, you might want to explore why you’re having trouble connecting with your peers. Perhaps you’re too wrapped up in the college transfer decision, and view your time at your current college as temporary. I don’t think your peers at Cornell would be all that different from the ones you have now (although Cornell is a much bigger school and there are always new people to meet). Good luck. I think you’ll be fine either way.</p>

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<p>I transferred a quarter century ago from a well regarded school to a marginally more well regarded school. I’m glad I did so, but for reasons that have nothing to do with the cachet of my undergraduate degree-granting institution. </p>

<p>I personally think your resume will look at least as impressive if you go to Oxford next year, and return your top-25 liberal arts college for your senior year, than it will if you were to spend the next two years in Ithaca. (Full disclosure - I transferred away from Cornell, and continue to hold the school in high regard.)</p>

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<p>So…if you are studying abroad next year at Oxford, your transfer is really only for one year - and that your senior one. Frankly, to me, two years at an Ivy wouldn’t be worth one year at Oxford plus a year at any top 100 school, no less than top 25. If you excel at where you are in your senior year, following a year at Oxford, the world is your oyster.</p>

<p>I know very much what you feel like. I was 125th in my high school, and after my freshman year, number 1 or 2 in my class at the number one LAC in the country. I too didn’t find the students all that engaging or interesting either (which probably says more about me and my immaturity than it does about them.) But I can tell you from checking notes with my Ivy friends, I received a much better undergraduate education than any of them: better mentoring, better advising, more research opportunities, better study abroad (which I didn’t take advantage of at the time), just more “care” taken for my education.</p>

10

<p>Why not apply to Cornell and then spend time there if you like it and get in? However, you frankly sound happy where you are (more so than many students), you willl likely have a great year abroad, and then come back and finish senior year with your friends. If you go abroad while at Cornell, you will spend senior year trying to make friends. Also, you are getting a 4.0 average. Cornell is known for a tough grading system and lots of work. How hard do you want to work?.
This is not a put down on students who don’t want to work 24/7 - I know many young people who chose Ivies like Penne and Brown over MIT and UChicago because while they wanted to work hard and be surrounded by smart kids, they wanted a college life they were not sure they would have at say, MIT.
It actually sounds like you have two good choices. I don’t think it will make any difference to your future.
At our company we had 3 young people apply - from Princeton, Cornell and URochester. Everyone who interviewed the candidates wanted the student from Rochester, hands down. It had to do with who the person was, personality, how much interest the student had shown in our field while in college, etc.</p>

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<p>Woland–this is not your last chance at an Ivy degree. If you are at the top of your class, you could get an advanced degree at an Ivy (or other top school). I may be wrong, but I get the impression that you are satisfied with where you are and enjoying your success, (which sounds like you did not expect?) and maybe do not want to mess with that, which is okay!</p>

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<p>If you are for sure going to Oxford I wouldn’t bother with the transfer. My son went through similar “what ifs” and wonderings his freshman and sophomore years and it was further compounded by an initial waitlist at a top Ivy his senior year of high school. He also felt and still feels his education and the advising are excellent where he is . There was just enough good to keep him from applying as a transfer. He has been up and down about this at times wondering what life is like at an Ivy, mostly wondering about peers as opposed to career prospects. Interestingly enough he is at Oxford for two terms, not a whole year and has actually met some fellow students from his school that he really connects with - had to go to England to find them! He has very good friends at his school but he’s always felt he couldn’t find those kind of deep intellectual connnections there - I think it takes time in some places. </p>

<p>I also understand the pressure from friends and families. I live in a place where people don’t obsess about Ivies ( don’t even know where most of them are) but I used to get anxious reading CC because there used to be a more prevailing tone of Ivy or bust. Worrying about my kid finding the perfect fit is a recipe for neurosis in a perfectionist like me - thank goodness my kids didn’t inherit or learn that trait. Anyway, I believe transfer can be an excellent thing. I’ve read plenty of stories here that are testament to that but you don’t sound unhappy enough to make the leap. </p>

<p>I too really appreciate Jmmom’s comments.</p>

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<p>I also think you’ll regret it if you give up the chance to go to Oxford for a year to transfer. Wouldn’t you? Esp. after what lizschup just wrote above–food for thought!</p>

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<p>Visit the Ivy of your choice. Talk to the graduate students. Notice how few of them went to an Ivy for undergrad. I vote with the prior posters. You have an LAC that you like and an opportunity for a great overseas year. A very large “bird in the hand”. I have many acquaintances and friends who have had an Ivy they didn’t like.</p>

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<p>It’s funny.</p>

<p>I’ve been lurking on CC for the past year or so, posting for the past few months… I’ve talked to friends, family, professors, even, yes, a therapist, and I’ve never really felt much of an impact in either direction.</p>

<p>Until now.</p>

<p>Even though I phrased things rather poorly last night, the main struggle I was having was with my peer group. I go to a relatively small school, and I had the fortune of making friends with an exceptional group of people in high school that I’m still very close to. I think I expected to find a similar sort of group here and was disappointed when it wasn’t the case – I’m very outgoing, I tried, cross my fingers. But it didn’t happen. </p>

<p>I’m of the mind that college is what you make of it, and I’m trying to make the most of it. But I’m also a firm believer in the idea that you are shaped, particularly at the formative ages of a 20 something, by your environment. And I worried – and still do – that my environment just isn’t intellectually stimulating enough on a social scale. Academically, no question that it is. But I worried my growth as an individual, in the realm of conversation and interpersonal skills, was being stunted. I’m realizing now – and this really surprises me that it happened here – that most of it is probably in my head.</p>

<p>All of you have given such caring, thoughtful responses, and I wish there was a way to express how much that means to me. This indecision really has taken on a life of its own, and it’s eaten away at a year that I intellectually know I should be proud of and a year abroad that I should be ecstatic about. </p>

<p>I probably should have come here before venturing to the CC transfer site. lizschup is right. CC itself can cause anxiety. The transfer zone is like a feedback loop: ivy ivy ivy, prestige jobs money. Ugh. Tell your beloved ones to stay away from there. (Though I must say it’s very informative). </p>

<p>You are all entirely right. Why am I leaving what seems to be a fantastic education? I’m not wildly unhappy. I won’t even be here next year. Grad school looms around the bend anyway. Or not. It doesn’t matter. I really should just enjoy what I’ve got.</p>

<p>Thanks to all of you for the perspective… and for the empathy. It’s sad the extent to which a fixation on brand names have screwed up the minds of my generation.</p>

<p>Alright, enough of the monologue.</p>

<p>I’m going to send in my acceptance to Oxford tomorrow. Enough is enough. </p>

<p>Many thanks,
E</p>

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<p>Beautiful post, E. Beautiful post. Good luck and Godspeed at Oxford. Come back and tell us how things go.</p>

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<p>Congrats Woland, I don’t think you will ever regret your decision.</p>

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<p>Excellent decision.</p>

<p>I went to school in London for a year, it was probably the most memorable year of my life. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>I don’t know if you are going to Oxford with a program from your school or not, but do try to mix it up with other students there. Join anything you can. Even if some of the British are not that inclusive (and they may be, I just don;t know) Oxford is filled with young people from all over the world doing just what you’ll be doing - and you should be able to meet people who stretch you intellectually.
Since your problem is social, is it possible there are people at your college that you just don;t know that you might like? I would again suggest joining some groups where perhaps you know no one. Even a group outside your main interests, since you may know everyone in your major, for instance. You may well find intellectually interesting people in a political group, debate group, the school paper, or even the improv groups - they have to be really quick on their feet. Also, when you come back from Oxford, lots of your classmates will be coming back from a year abraod, as well, an you all may have changed and grown a lot.
Good luck to you.</p>

20

<p>I already made a dramatic exit, but I might as well keep at it –</p>

<p>Catherine: I’m been accepted straight into Oxford with visiting student status. I’m one of two kids from abroad at the college I’m at, I’m treated as a student there. Which is very nice. I defintely plan on mixing primarily with kids from the school itself.<br>
Additionally, I have a friend who’s there right now on a Rhodes scholarship, and he’s offered to introduce me to all of his colleagues throughout the year. Which, on its own, is pretty exceptional. Talk about intellectual stretching.
In terms of social problems at my current school, it’s difficult to say what’s exactly wrong. I’m on several student government committees, an editor for our school newspaper, i mentor kids from the city, i’m part of a small honors program of 30 kids, college dems, rugby…
It’s hard to know where else I could possibly find people. I have a few great friends here, but I guess, and this is strange, I’m sick of being the best at everything. Class discussions are led by me, and sometimes only exist between me and the teacher… It’s odd. I can’t decide if it’s purely student apathy or something greater. Whether in public or private, in print or spoken, there’s no one here that I definitively admire and look up to… which I miss.
I feel I grow more when, as you say, I’m intellectually stretched. When it’s hard to keep up, you’re forced to grow. That’s not happening here, and that’s part of what made me question the merits of biggest fish here versus relatively smaller fish size at an ivy, but with the possibility of growing w/ the environment.<br>
But Oxford offers precisely that. </p>

<p>Again, thanks.</p>