What is opposite of center? 
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I would like to think the atrocities committed by all sides in the situation are not celebrated by anyone.
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One would like to think so, but that unfortunately exactly what is happening.
Iâm not sure how my saying that swastikas are definitely not okay got interpreted as an endorsement of the statement that Jews are complicit in genocide. Thatâs exactly the kind of reaction that confuses a lot of people.
Glad that we can end in agreement. Regardless of the âsidesâ here, itâs too bad that our best Universities have been turned into political pawns and their students painted as either victims or bigots. Some of my most generous, caring and thoughtful mentors were of the Jewish faith. They were tougher and smarter than I, and worrying about getting our papers out, not getting scooped and overall doing a great job was a 6 day a week job. Decades of long, hard work was their thing. Politics wasnât their thing. Too bad they have to get swept up in this.
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Yes. And there are similar celebrations in the opposite direction. Sad all around
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This has become the mantra, but I am not sure it is accurate. Prior to Oct. 7, the supposed free speech advocates were working very hard to create a space on college campuses for right wing extremists, whether they were anti-semitic, racist, anti-LGBTQ, anti-womenâs healthcare, etc. Since Oct. 7, many of the same voices have been trying to work to eliminate left wing extremist voices on campuses, with efforts to rid campuses of alleged anti-semitism, even when the expression was directed at the Israeli government or the right for self-determination for Palestine. In other words, some offensive speech from the right needs protection and those offended need to buck up, while offensive speech from the left is a national emergency worthy of Congressional hearings.
Take the example of Kyle Kashuv, mentioned above by @HNH. Kashuv had his offer of admissions revoked for ["repeated uses of the N-word and phrases like âKill all the f***ing Jewsâ], which is consistent with Harvardâs policy of considered disqualifying factors after the offer of admissions but before enrollment. So no âunequal enforcement of policies.â(Harvard Rescinds Offer To Parkland Survivor Kyle Kashuv For Racial Slurs : NPR). Kashuv has become a poster child of F.I.R.E. and those who complain about free speech on campus. Yet some of those same voices call for expulsion of pro-Palestinian students who would call for the extermination of all Jews (as well they should.)
That, in a nutshell, is the double standard and hypocrisy of many of those upset about how campuses are handling these issues. Extreme, offensive voices from the right need to be welcomed and accepted with open arms. Extreme voices from the left need to be shut down and expelled. Minorites and a LGBTQ+ students need to buck up and take it when it comes to dealing with right wing bigots, while a Jewish student should have their feelings protected.
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I am literally asking. Not saying you hold this opinion.
You are replying originally to my comment where I pose a number of questions. And again, I feel like I stated this several times, this thread and my comments are not specifically about Harvard or the lawsuit.
There are degrees, I would think. Having to walk by an outdoor demonstration might be on one end of the spectrum. Having students bang on the windows and threaten visibly Jewish students might be at the other end. Where is the line drawn in the middle between merely seeing something you could reasonably avoid with minimal disruption to actually being physically threatened and possibly assaulted? Because these things are actually happening on college campuses.
You evoked the âknow it when I see itâ standard.
So, I am giving actual examples from real life (these things I mentioned about dorm common area posters and being constantly barraged with this messaging that one MUST stand with Hamas or be complicit in genocide are things my child experienced)⊠and I am asking if the university should permit such things under the rubric of free speech.
It is a genuine question, with no assumption about your reply.
You mentioned one that should not be allowed (the menorah)âŠthat is also vandalism of property so I wanted to pose examples that are not also additional violations beyond the content.
Nowhere did I claim you already stated an opinion one way or another.
Note that weâre not necessarily talking about swastikas all by themselves. Most people on the left would find that obviously objectionable. Itâs more common to see an Israeli flag, equals sign, then a swastika or Nazi flag. (Not that this is any easier for a student to walk past. But itâs considered acceptable political discourse by many on the left.)
Jews are the original minority.
And unlike some, all they ask for is equal treatment.
âŠAs for the right-wing and left-wing bigots: a plague on both their houses.
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But both should be equally acceptable by the supposed free speech crowd. They are not. The swastika alone (essentially a statement of âI am a Naziâ) is entirely acceptable to those advocating for more robust speech. In contrast, after Oct. 7, many of the same voices believe that the swastika=Israel sign (essentially a statement that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany) should be prohibited.
So somehow it is okay proudly proclaim support for Nazis, but not okay to condemn a foreign government for acting like Nazis. That is an ugly hypocrisy, but it captures the views of many. Extreme speech from the right must be accepted, extreme speech from the left must be rejected.
?
I donât think either one is great, but Iâm not arguing to outlaw them either. My objection is to putting them on dorm doors.
Edited to add: I do think you might be interpreting the âequalsâ swastika sign in a too narrow sense, though. These signs are generally used by folks whose rhetoric is quite a bit stronger than simply neutral political commentary, and one often gets the sense that this sign is used because itâs a more politically acceptable way to display a swastika. We hear âHitler was rightâ quite a bit too.
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outlaw? I thought we were talking about campus policies. Should campuses allow a swastika by itself on a dorm door? Should campuses allow swastika=Israel on a dorm door? Why or why not?
Are they substantively the same, or are they distinguishable?
Added: My question is not rhetorical. I am asking not to start a debate, but because I donât understand your position and am seeking some clarification. Thanks.
(who knew asking questions wasnât allowed?)
Iâll assume thatâs a rhetorical question, since as posed it will only lead to debate. Of course, thereâs a lovely politics forum where the question can fit right in.
And on a related subject, the above 3-4 users are engaging in a bit too much back-and-forth. Such conversations are better held via PM.
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I wasnât looking for the Sorbonneâs response to the 9/11 attacks. And if Oxford didnât make a public response to 9/11, I wouldnât impute that all Oxford students are a pack of anti-American bigots.
My initial comment here is really my point. A group in the US demanded that Universities respond to October 7 and the ensuing War by taking a side. Whether it was Ackmanâs millions or some other factor, there is a clear claim that there is a Right and Wrong and Universities can not decline to take a side largely because of FIRE. How many times did we hear âHarvard has taken so many political stances, it has the worst ranking possible on FIRE. Their silence on Israel now is unacceptable!â
Except FIRE is no authority. Fire is the organizational âuseful idiotâ. So then it turns into just demanding that our Universities take a stand. And I donât know of many other groups that would feel entitled to that. If Pakistan invaded Kashmir and killed thousands (probably tens of thousands) of Indian civilians, would Indian-Americans demand that Princeton denounce that action or be labelled anti-Hindu? Not really.
And tropes are terrible, but it might be a little easier to understand studentsâ statements that Jewish people hold powerful positions when a Jewish billionaire has just paid to doxx your picture all over Harvard Square and issued a statement with 3 other Jewish billionaires that they will no longer hire Harvard students. From that perspective, still not right, but it must be antiSemitism?
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At MIT, posters on dorm rooms are against the policy even sans swastika.
12.5.5.1 Permissible Uses of Institute Display Spaces
Institute Display Spaces may only be used by DLCs, recognized student groups, and other established Institute groups, such as academic and administrative units, unions, and employee resource groups. Individual students, faculty, and staff may not post on Institute Display Spaces unless sponsored by or acting on behalf of an Institute group, except that candidates for student leadership positions may post on Institute Display Spaces in accordance with rules governing elections for those positions. Non-MIT individuals, organizations, and groups are prohibited from using Institute Display Spaces unless sponsored by an Institute group.
The use of posters, flyers, and similar items (collectively, âpostersâ) on Institute Display Spaces shall only be used to communicate information about Institute or MIT-recognized group events, activities, programs, or services, or for educational, research, professional, or volunteer opportunities that are relevant to the MIT community.
All posters must clearly and conspicuously identify and include contact information for the group responsible for the posters.
Posters on the MIT campus, regardless of location, may not be used to engage in harassment, discrimination, retaliation, invasion of personal privacy, defamation, threats or violence, targeting of groups or individuals, infringing the intellectual property rights of others, or other violations of law or MIT policies.
Posters must not be posted on common area or outdoors-facing doors, windows, walls, elevators, pillars, floors, ceilings, stairs, railings, fences, bike racks, tables or chairs, chalkboards, whiteboards, classroom spaces, trees or other landscape features, lamp posts or street signs, art installations, or any outside building spaces. Posters must only be affixed with materials that do not cause permanent damage to surfaces.
Basically, no political posters.
Harvard (and others) have taken political stances, and policed speech, on many issues, most recently and notably in 2020 on George Floydâs murder and the ensuing protests.
The focus on FIRE is a distraction. The fact remains.
And the hypocrisy is not on those who note that evident fact, but on Harvard (and others) for suddenly, suddenly deciding to become free speech absolutists.
I, for one, support free speech - properly understood.
But they arenât fooling me. Or anyone.
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Thatâs a thing with the left, though, and I say that as someone who leans pretty far left. Many leftists have done the same with Ukraine (and somehow people who have never stepped foot in Ukraine somehow know what percentage of the population are âNazisâ). But, if you want to shut down the opposing side, claim Nazis. I would say the argument is wholly disingenuous, but many actually believe it.
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So your point is that a University of whose last 6 presidents 4 have been of the Jewish faith, who admits 10% (recently 20%) undergraduates who are of the Jewish faith despite the fact that 2% of graduating high school students are Jewish, whose corporation is headed by a Jewish person and whose faculty includes some of the most brilliant Jewish minds in the World was all along secretly anti-Semitic, and thatâs why they didnât want to take a political side on Israel and the War?
Okay. I guess they didnât fool you. If thatâs hate from Harvard, whatâs the word for their treatment of Asians?
I swear I am not trying to be dense but I just tried to and cannot locate this forum. Could you link or tell me which hearing it is under?
Personally, it seems like how a university is responding to antisemitism on campus isnât a theoretical political issue but very much about actually parenting college-aged students who are navigating these issues and incidentsâŠbut I also believe in deferring to mods and admins on discussion boards and will be happy to keep my discussion there.
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