I look at CC a lot on my phone and my eyes are getting more terrible by the day and I keep thinking that this is a thread about sax playing while in college and I was so happy to see this classic nightclub instrument is getting popular again on campuses…only to discover…oy.
Both of our kids were in the OWL program, and both my wife and I are OWL teachers (but we did not teach while our sons were taking it). The social anxiety they inherited from me will probably make even asking for a date very difficult, but they have the tools to deal with it responsibly if it happens.
This isn’t necessarily medically accurate. A person with a BAC of 0.15 could be blacked out, but still not be incapacitated, as the term incapacitated is used in criminal law. Of course, someone with a BAC of 0.15 will appear drunk, but no external observer would know they are blacked out.
^True @roethlisburger, at least not an external observer having as little experience in these matters as your typical college student.
A person with a BAC of 0.15 would almost certainly be incapacitated - that is almost twice the very liberal legal limit of 0.08 in the United States. You begin to be impaired at about 0.04 BAC. The United States has one of the highest limits of being legally too drunk to drive for developed countries (typically it is around 0.05).
0.03 → your driving skills are “significantly affected” (1)
0.04 → legally intoxicated in many African and Asian countries (some have even lower limits)
0.05 → legally intoxicated in most Western countries
0.08 → legally intoxicated in the United States
At a 0.15 BAC, there is a good chance that the person is having difficulty keeping balance (which should be a clear signal to not try to have sex with them). Also, they will almost certainly have slurred speech. A blackout at below a 0.14-0.15 BAC is pretty rare, so I’m not really considering that, admittedly. A reasonable person may not be able to tell someone with around a 0.15 BAC is going to blackout, but they will know that they cannot consent to sex in their condition (severely incapacitated balance and motor skills, slurred speech).
(1) https://www.csbsju.edu/chp/health-promotion/alcohol-guide/understanding-blood-alcohol-content-(bac)
Also see:
https://alcohol.stanford.edu/alcohol-drug-info/buzz-buzz/what-bac
What do DUI BAC limits have to do with anything? Being too drunk to legally drive or even twice the legal limit does not imply you are incapacitated, at least as the term is used in criminal law. In most cases, a student with a BAC of 0.15 probably couldn’t consent for Title IX purposes, but that’s going to depend on what college they attend and how their particular college chooses to define consent.
@OHMomof2 You mention using condoms if kids are already having sex, which is better than nothing. However, the idea would be to not have sex because they are so ineffective.
I don’t watch TV, so wouldn’t know about Grey’s Anatomy.
Several posters brought up alcohol. At least half of all campus rapes involve alcohol, and it has been this way for decades. Everyone on campus should avoid alcohol, especially women. Not just for avoiding rape, but there is simply nothing good that can come out of it. Surely to goodness the brightest minds on earth can find a better way to entertain themselves than drinking.
I was using it as something people who cannot relate to BACs could use to put things in perspective. My point, however still stands: “At a 0.15 BAC, there is a good chance that the person is having difficulty keeping balance (which should be a clear signal to not try to have sex with them).” My original point was there is no blurred line here for the perpetrator, and therefore no real excuse of ignorance.
Oh, fgs, how would you know?
That’s just health and alcohol education. Did you bother reading any of my links?
In case you need more:
https://www.alcohol.org/effects/blood-alcohol-concentration/ ← They say Blackouts begin at 0.2 BAC. I made the concession in an earlier post that a blackout could still occur as low as 0.14-0.15 BAC, but in that case the person would still clearly be too drunk to approach for sex.
https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-2/186-196.htm ← avg. BAC peak during the night of subjects blacking out is 0.28. Subsequent research described in the paper out the peak BACs at 0.30 for male subjects 0.35 for female subjects.
I have been an educator and responder to multiple drug/alcohol incidents at a major state flagship. I am not making facts up - and you can make time to read all these links and do your own research if you would like.
Statistics are statistics - they can show anything you want them to. The cases of individual people are still individual. People can be blacked out and you can’t tell, whether you want to believe that or not.
You’re trying to assert that someone who was black-out drunk would be totally obviously incapacitated and it’s just not true.
This is just wrong on so many levels.
See for example:
https://www.piedmont.org/living-better/the-health-benefits-of-beer
There are also some studies that suggest a beer after a workout has some beneficial effects-- but to be fair there are others that disagree
It’s true in almost any black-out case that the person will appear incapacitated. I brought empirical data to support my case. Sure you can find crazy outlier exceptions, which is why a level of due process is afforded in legitimate Title IX, Civil, and Criminal proceedings.
This is why I said blackouts for under a 0.14-0.15 BAC are rare, not impossible.
For the record, at Michigan incapacitation is defined as ““temporarily incapable of appraising or controlling [their] conduct due to the influence of a narcotic, anesthetic, or other substance”. The symptoms of a 0.15 BAC person (which is approximately the lowest BAC where blackouts have been observed, sans outliers) fit these parameters pretty easily. A lot of schools have similar definitions, but of course it can vary.
None of this is medical/legal advice, ofc.
^no excuses. Judge, jury, and executioner.
You didn’t provide any empirical data that says anything close to that. I went to both of your links and neither of them say anything at all about what it means to be incapacitated.
@roethlisburger I posted the Michigan definition for being incapacitated.
@sylvan8798 I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying I do not support due process? I never said that. Me forming my own opinion for a case based on my observations (which is natural to do) is not depriving someone of due process, since I am literally not playing the role of the mediator or case officer. I never suggested we remove due process.
Not sure what people here are trying to imply. My original point is that the blurred lines defense does not really hold much water when someone is blacked out. I can maybe understand it being used for when someone is a little drunk. But when the survivor has a BAC of at least around 0.15? Nope. This is just my opinion, and not how things really work out (it is really hard to actually find someone responsible for sexual misconduct, which I also mentioned in my first post).
@jmnva06 Aside from the unlikelihood of college kids drinking to lower their bad cholesterol, none of these studies about the benefits of alcohol could legally or ethically be based on people so young, for which there is considerable medical concern about its permanent effects on the devoloping brain.
People can call it unfair all they want, but the first thing a jury wants to know is if a girl was drinking.
I have a general rule against engaging with anyone who is clearly, willfully ignorant and who just made an account within the last several days. So I’m just going to stay out of that.
I’ve been yelling about hook up culture being a myth for years. Glad the long known data is finally seeping into public consciousness.
I was a sex ed and HIV test counselor here at UMich for several years. It never failed to absolutely amaze me how little these very intelligent students knew about sex. I had to teach kids how to correctly apply a condom at least once a week. I more than once had to explain to gay students that no, you don’t just spontaneously get HIV because you’re gay.
It blew my mind. Honestly, I never would’ve believed it if I hadn’t been the one there talking to the students in private 1-on-1 sessions.
Talk to kids early and often about sex, consent, benefits and potential consequences. Talking to them once they reach college is way way way too late.
Glad to see @romanigypsyeyes , a sex ed counselor, is in tacit agreement with my position that condoms don’t work because they’re being applied incorrectly.
Two sons. We had the HS and pre HS talks about the nuts and bolts and not getting pregnant and about the emotional consequences of sex. In college? I laid off until there was so much in the news about drunken sex and consent, then I brought it up just to touch base with them and see that they were thinking about the issue and thinking about it from the POV of the girl. I told a few stories about girls I knew who were date raped back when I was in college. For good measure and because I am their mom, I reminded them about using condoms.
That sounds preachier than it was!
I consider myself fortunate in that both kids have long term girlfriends, sex (presumably!), and no pregnancies. Call me old school in an era in which kids are having less sex, but I think this is the time in their lives to be out there falling in love and lust.