<p>Yup. Flavored tobacco. And the kind of hookah you mean usually didn’t involve the numbers of people who share now. That’s why I said it’s unhygenic, not that I really sat here and worried about that. My girl has incipient asthma and does not like silly things, so this ws not her idea of amazing, but it is cheap, a bit exotic and friends thought it ws really cool. She did go several times with friends.</p>
<p>Interesting (& scary) reading all about the current culture at colleges. I’m probably the minority, here…</p>
<p>Somehow, I just have this feeling that I don’t HAVE to give in to the prevailing culture & have my son (&, 10 years later, my daughter) go & live in an environment that has a huge percentage of peers drinking, drugging, being promiscuous, etc.</p>
<p>I’d like my son exposed to a wider, more adult culture than the one in which he’s grown up (although we live in a wonderfully diverse area, in terms of ethnicity & religion). I imagine it would be good for him (although he’ll decide) not to necessarily only live w/conservative Christians (although he is Christian). But, I would really, really hope the other option is not an incredibly, wild, party atmosphere. </p>
<p>I totally agree w/having to trust your child’s morals, internal compass, etc. But, then again, why would I want to throw a young, 18-yo into the fire of multiple temptations?</p>
<p>I would hope that the choices aren’t: 1) limiting, conservative conformity that leads directly into lock-step career path (as barrons mentioned earlier) or 2) swimming in a sea of decadence hoping not to go under.</p>
<p>This issue has been troubling me during the college evaluation process more than almost any other one.</p>
<p>It’s not; there are many other situations. There are religiously affiliated institutions that still offer liberal arts educations.</p>
<p>And I don’t think kids letting go on weekends after a rigorous working week is swimming in a sea of decadence. </p>
<p>My kids are both getting a varied and deep liberal arts education. D’s excursion into hookah bar is not decadent to me. Sitting with friends smoking tobacco a few times is as tame as it gets – much more than I was.</p>
<p>S is at an institution where the kids do drink beer on Sat. night, but thus was it always. He has resolved to study EMT to help any kids with problems with drinking. I also don’t see this as swimming in a sea of decadence.</p>
<p>But as JHS points out, neither is watching a fascinating artistic display, seeing a posting for a clothing optional movie or having one’s leg pulled about smoking pot.</p>
<p>Most kids are very aware of the fact that soon they’ll have to earn a living and all at my kids schools are serious about their studies. However, adolescents have been the terror of the parents’ lives (kidding) from time immemorial, and they will always do some silly things.</p>
<p>I guess I’d separate the (mainly) harmless, fun-but-pushing-the-social-envelope stuff mentioned here (clothing optional movies, etc.) from the more hard-core stuff I’ve been hearing about elsewhere.</p>
<p>E.g., on another thread, a parent described her son’s experience of living on an ‘athletic floor’ of a small LAC – athletes were drunk a lot of the time, trashing dorm, RAs did nothing. My friend’s daughter is at U of Delaware – she’s going to leave her current living arrangement because friends (they moved in together by choice) are doing tons of coke (& they enjoy going to strip clubs for fun [yes, they are girls]).</p>
<p>Just kind of saddening. </p>
<p>When I talk to other parents about this stuff (e.g. “I’m worried about the alcohol culture at college; hope there aren’t a lot of drugs…etc.”) – I invariably get the response: “It’s everywhere. Get used to it. You have to trust your child w/the values with which he was raised.” Etc. </p>
<p>I’m just believing that (somehow) this passive acceptance of whatever is currently prevalent need NOT be the only response.</p>
<p>Is anyone imagining that alcohol, drugs and sex are not pervasive in most high schools? </p>
<p>My D is a 3rd year in college. Her roomies all drink, but she doesn’t. It’s just an unimportant difference. She goes to parties and dances, socializes, and leaves when people are not fun any more. They are very close friends and have much in common, and have chosen to stay roomies till now. They do lots of fun stuff together. I doubt that any of them would attend a clothing optional party, but not because they are prudes, its just not their club.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Flavored tobacco. I do not smoke, at all, but some of my friends enjoy hookahs (and I enjoy being around them much more than I do when they’re indulging in other tobacco forms - the gentle strawberry or cinnamon or whatever smell of the flavored tobacco is much nicer than that of cigarettes).</p>
<p>Jolynne, when you are thinking about colleges and their culture, it’s probably also appropriate to think about the culture of young working adults who are NOT in college and not necessarily living with their parents. Or the military. In other words, the real alternative to college culture. I do not think it’s a whole lot more wholesome. (However, as mini has pointed out in the past, having to be at work in the morning does effectively limit one’s binge drinking and drugging on week nights at least. Cold comfort.) 18-year olds are pretty much going to walk through the valley of the shadow of something no matter where they are.</p>
<p>I apologize for being so testy and confrontational in this thread. It really interests me how different people read this story differently. I looked at it and thought, “Gee, that’s pretty great. Girls go on a road trip to an arty college, feel all grown up and edgy, but do absolutely nothing bad.” Yet lots of others were tsk-tsking with all their might. I know there is something of a culture war going on, and that there’s lots other posters and I might disagree on, but there’s lots that we agree on, too, and I never dreamed that the front line was fire-dancing clubs.</p>
<p>Encouraging story about your daughter, chocoholic! Glad she’s found interests/friends that are compatible and she navigates the social scene so well.</p>
<p>JHS–good point–I guess it’s true you should look at the whole spectrum of young adult behavior. I suppose I’m going through a ‘culture shock’ when I learn about college life (paralleling my financial sticker shock). Partly, I guess it’s that my son is a young 16 yo junior w/a group of friends that has not (until now, that I know of) engaged in anything more than boyish mischievousness (e.g. smashing our Halloween pumpkins after Halloween).</p>
<p>Just can’t picture him in the young adult, wild life, let alone navigating it effectively (although he probably would). Hopefully all be okay in the end!</p>
<p>Jolynne–its been my observation that at the artsy, edgy places, while of course having the same easy availability and availment of alcohol, casual sex, and drugs as most non uber-religious colleges, the pressure to take part is much less than at many other colleges. My D started at a conventional university (mentioned here recently) where she was totally turned off by the mainstream binge-drinking, huge anonymous party culture. She transfered to an alt-y LAC, which could easily be the one described by the OP (though I defer to Weskid’s reasons why it’s probably not :)), and there the overwhelming ethos was that people could partake or not as they wanted to. Interestingly many of these counter-culture-y kids were extremely personally conservative, and choices were treated with much more respect than at the conventional school she left.</p>
<p>From stories here and other places, I don’t think her experience was unusual, either. The arty, quirky places do seem to place great weight on individual choice, including choice to say no, without judgment.</p>
<p>This is not about a culture war so much as it is about differences in culture. Depending on your background, where you were raised, your religion, etc., nudity (for example) may be no big deal, or it may be a big deal. While I am certainly aware that all kinds of things go on at most colleges, it would surprise me to see a “clothing optional” event listed in the official event calendar of the school. I would be even more surprised if this were on a list of events given to prospective students on an overnight visit. I feel pretty sure that there are some colleges that would not do this (and not just the religious-affiliated ones). It’s awfully easy to tell people that they should just get used to things they don’t like and that they should be exposed to different cultures and ways of thinking, etc. But we probably all have things that make us uncomfortable…they’re just not the same things.</p>
<p>Garland–really interesting.</p>
<p>This:
“the mainstream binge-drinking, huge anonymous party culture”</p>
<p>is exactly what I’m not looking forward to for my son & worried about. He’s conservative in his actions (now) but I do see that he looks up to certain friends. Those friends happen to be smart, musical & not into drinking/drugs. But, what if it seemed the majority of social life at a U revolved around beer parties & bar hopping? Would he have the wherewithal to stand in a minority against that? Just think it might be asking a lot of a youngish teen on his first foray into the big world. I could be wrong…but just want to maximize the chances for success (while obviously not keeping him in a bubble!).</p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughts.</p>
<p>Jolynne Smyth, I have a youngish teen who is a freshman this year. I was very worried inside about his “first foray into the big world”, try as I did to keep that hidden (ha). His eyes were opened very quickly at college to the larger “drinking culture”; he told me early on he’d thought in high school that only “losers” got drunk all the time, but now he was seeing kids he liked who were otherwise smart and doing well in class also getting rip-roaring drunk. I think he was not expecting it. (Comments from him like, “Why do kids go to college if all they want to do is drink?” made me think he was even more naive than I’d assumed.) Despite all my fears (he can be easily swayed and highly impulsive), he turned into the “den mother” in his suite, keeping order and keeping noise down and reminding everyone to be responsible. When he’s away they tend to go wild, though, and have received some disciplinary actions as a result. So he’s started to leave the suite as soon as he sees a party ramping up. He actually told me, “I took your advice and started hanging out with some other people who don’t get in as much trouble.” He likes his suite-mates, and even respects them, but decided he doesn’t want to be part of the drinking. (“I told them once I was just going to go elsewhere and play video games and they told me I was a party pooper and I said, ‘Eh, whatever,’ and I just left.”) I told him that I’m proud of him: not because I think he steadfastly shouldn’t party. But because he decided what he did and didn’t want, and then stood up for it. </p>
<p>So this is just a long anecdotal way of saying that your son might surprise you. I never would have expected it of mine, but he’s found his own way, and yours likely will, too. I’ll hold good thoughts.</p>
<p>I saw some of the phenomenon that garland describes too, with increased counter-culture-ness being positively correlated with more respect for people’s individual choices. And I would describe myself as someone who’s counterculture but in some ways very personally conservative (not politically, though! ;)).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Even at large party schools, there are subcultures that don’t follow this format. If he ends up at a school like this, encourage him to find the people he’s compatible with.</p>
<p><a href=“Comments%20from%20him%20like,%20%22Why%20do%20kids%20go%20to%20college%20if%20all%20they%20want%20to%20do%20is%20drink?%22%20made%20me%20think%20he%20was%20even%20more%20naive%20than%20I’d%20assumed.”>quote</a>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think your son asks a wise question. Anyone in college who gets rip-roaring drunk on a regular basis is squandering a wonderful opportunity to learn.</p>
<p>I really don’t get the split emphasis of desiring quality schools while condoning or tolerating rip-roaring drunks.</p>
<p>As for clothing optional activities, what upside can compensate for the downside of offending some, including prospective students?</p>
<p>Mootmom, I had the same experience in college. Only the kids I didn’t want to emulate drank or did drugs in high school. But in college it seemed like everyone did. And everyone was at least a good student. That said, while no one pressured one to partake it was easier when I was never asked. However my son, unlike me, doesn’t like parties, dancing or loud music, so he’s likely to never go to the parties in the first place.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Nobody’s forced to partake. If prospective students can’t handle a bunch of people going off and doing a voluntary activity that doesn’t harm them, maybe they should go to a school with less freedom and tolerance of eccentricity.</p>
<p>Pretty much everything offends somebody. The ROTC offends some subset of prospective students/parents. Pro-choice and pro-life student groups offend some subset. So do gay rights groups. Various campus religious groups offend some subset - should a school not allow a pagan students’ group because it might offend Christian prospectives (or vice-versa, though any pagan kid in this country who isn’t used to the idea of Christians by college age must be very sheltered)? I don’t see any need for “compensation” for this supposed downside.</p>
<p>I, of course, agree with jessiehl on the above. But I note that most of the posters who objected to the clothing optional movie assumed that the event had something to do with sex. So that would provide your upside, too, if you believe it.</p>
<p>More likely, you can’t feel like you’re liberating yourself from the shackles of convention and bourgeois hang-ups if you are not risking some offense to the conventional and hung-up. And, honestly, this is not much different from any other campus free speech issue.</p>
<p>I have no problem with clothing optional beaches, camps, whatever. I don’t habitate them, but then again I’m entering my late 40’s. During college, however, there were several instances where I felt like a gauntlet had been thrown down to prove myself by doing something symbolic, random, and superficial. It was as if, unless I participated, I was a member of the “establishment” (remember that?). Some of the meetings, get-togethers, and activities were pretty silly, and I didn’t partake. Then again, here I am in a red state, happily abiding, with kids who wear topsiders and polo shirts.</p>
<p>Anyway, I have a nice cooshie that says, “Surf Naked”, so I’m OK with nudity. Just don’t want to be the one going nude (didn’t I have a bad dream about that last week?).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree with you about this. But there is a difference between “people going off and doing a voluntary activity” and listing that activity in admissions office literature. One wouldn’t expect to see illegal or obviously immoral campus ‘activities’ listed there.</p>
<p>I think we should consider that there are many parents who would forbid their child from going away to any campus with clothing-optional activities and the like. Without parental support, most kids won’t go on to school. I have cousins who would never have gotten degrees if it were not for a local school that they could attend while living under mom and dad’s roof. The mom called me a ‘bad girl’ for going away to school, and this was years ago, when (I doubt) that they could have obtained written proof of what to them would be offending activities.</p>
<p>I still think it’s bad judgment on the part of the school to officially list a clothing optional activity, i.e. to imply that they condone it. But if their goal is to communicate the vibe of the school, that they achieved.</p>
<p>A few thoughts, if I might.</p>
<p>I agree with Garland - sometimes the most “alternative” schools are ones where there is more acceptance of individual differences, including the decision not to indulge in things that make you uncomfortable. My daughter attends such a school. She’s encountered lots of shenanigans at her school, very similar to what the OP described. Yet, she herself hasn’t felt any pressure whatsoever to do drugs, drink, or strip down naked. She says the general reaction when she declines whatever is, “that’s cool.” She actually has several friends at this school who are pretty conservative and quite religious (my daughter is neither) and they are accepted as well. </p>
<p>Second, my daughter hosts prospies several times a month. She says that quite often they prospies get antsy when she suggests activities on campus that don’t involve parties, sex, drinking, or drugs. THEY are the ones asking for these things, and seeking them out (she has several amusing stories of prospies getting away from her, and having to track them down to protect them from rather compromising situations).</p>
<p>I couldn’t agree more with the folks who said it is really an individual thing. My husband attended a VERY conservative and religious school way back when - so conservative that co-ed dancing wasn’t allowed. Trust me. He found PLENTY of ways to circumvent the rules, and do more than dance with the opposite sex. By the same token, my daughter is a pretty straight-edged kind of kid - she’s found plenty of like minded folks at her college, and has had a darned good time to boot. </p>
<p>So, it really depends on the individual. Kids looking for wildness will find it, no matter where you plunk them down. Kids who aren’t looking for it, will manage to avoid it, no matter where you plunk them down.</p>
<p>By the way, it sounds like the OP’s daughter and my son did overnights at the same school (Emeraldcty, you know the one). I can’t say for sure if my son attended a clothing optional movie when he was on campus, but he sure did like the fire dancing and managed to get home without burning off his pants. :)</p>
<p>Finally, one more piece of advice. I actually didn’t come up with this idea - my daughter did. When she did overnights at schools she asked the admissions offices to pair her up with hosts who weren’t partiers so she could get a realistic sense of what it would be like to be a non-partier on campus. Most of the schools hard a hard time with this, but not the one that she now attends. That alone convinced her that it would be an OK place for her individually, as did having a really great and offbeat time with the non-partiers she was paired up with. Sometimes those non-partiers do the wildest things. 
But, more importantly, it is ALWAYS a good idea to ASK before you drop your kid off for an overnight what the school’s policies on such things are, and, let your kid know that if they do feel uncomfortable, that they can call and you’ll come get them.</p>