Colleges for the Jewish "B" student (Part 1)

Parents Forum
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<p>yabe, I’m wonder if that is true. I dip in and out of this thread, and I may be mistaken, but my sense is that this thread has largely limited consideration to the mid-Atlantic states and NY state (with a few excursions south to Charleston and North Carolina). There have got to be a lot of schools in New England and the West Coast that have significant Jewish populations. [I live in the Boston area and you can’t go 10 feet without running into a college.] I was looking for ShawD in Colorado (Colorado College and University of Denver, which boysc2) and was going to look in Ohio, but she’s decided that she wants to go to school in Canada, where there are a number of schools with active Hillels that would work for B students. Canadian schools typically look at only junior/senior year grades (or even just the relevant courses you’ve taken – if you are applying in science they don’t compute the GPA from art courses). But, if the mid-Atlantic universe is small (we haven’t been looking there but Goucher was on ShawD’s list at one point and is definitely a good school for Jewish B students, especially straight males), it’s a big world. People suggest schools outside (Arizona, Denver, Alabama, Texas, …) but the thread seems keeps coming back to Maryland and Pennsylvania, which may make the universe seem smaller than it is.</p>

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<p>I agree with blossom’s post. Something has to give, because there are not any schools that will have everything on the wish list as described in post 2596. </p>

<p>The only thing that I want to say is that different students have different priorities, so what are deal breakers and “must haves” will be different for different students. Some students will have a car, so a remote campus will be fine, while others want easy public transit. Some students only want suite style living with a single room, and others can deal with nearly any type of student housing. Some students do not want to be in any classes that are larger than 30, while others are fine getting through intro classes that are lecture style with TAs and they may even prefer to be in classes with more than 200 students. Bottom line is that students and families need to know what they can compromise on and what they can’t compromise on.</p>

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<p>I agree with blossom that life is about trade-offs. With ShawSon who was more the A to A+, greater than 2300 kid – and smarter than the GPA/test scores show, we made tradeoffs to find a school that would be accommodating to his learning disabilities. The small LAC he attends has very bright kids but he’s disappointed that there aren’t more smart kids (which says more about him than the other kids). It has very small class sizes, which does in his case, make a big difference, blossom (though it may not for all kids), as the teachers can see how smart he is by what he says in class as well as by what he turns in. He takes advantage of the size to meet outside of class with professors regularly. But, the course selection is limited – they really do not have much in the way of applied math, for example. Dartmouth had the perfect major for him but they were not going to be nearly as accommodating and their 4 quarter system might have been to abrupt for him (if he got sick, he wouldn’t have time to catch up). </p>

<p>Because there are many attributes on which we evaluate schools for possible fit for our kids, it is unlikely that one school is best on all of them. As a result, college choice, like life is about trade-offs. We may have to give up the perfect major or the short drive (ShawD has decided to go to places where a flight is necessary) or the right mix of students or even a sizeable, active Hillel (that may be one we have to trade off).</p>

2604

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<p>Yes, easy to find if finances are not the deal breaker and one is willing/can pay 40,000+ for school. When finances are an issue, then it becomes more difficult to find what the right fit in the northeast.</p>

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<p>Shawbridge, your post 2603 about trade offs is excellent. This is also what I mean about what is important for one student, is not for all students (ie: your example about class size). Class size is really important FOR SOME students, and for others it just does not matter much.</p>

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<p>The most frequent posters on this thread are primarily from the mid-atlantic and northeast states, and have kids that don’t want to stray across the country, which is why most of the focus has been in that area.</p>

<p>I’m sure if there are people from other parts of the country with similar concerns…we’ll get a wider variety of options.</p>

2607

<p>Shaw, great example. But don’t assume that bigger U’s with bigger average class sizes do not have professors who are happy and willing and available to meet with students regularly. That’s the point I’m making. If intro Chem or Psych 101 has 500 kids in it but by junior year your Classics major has run out of upper level seminars… which even in a huge university may have enrollment capped at 15 students… does the mere presence of those 500 kids in a chem lecture really impact your kid’s learning experience?</p>

<p>My suggestion is NOT to use average class size, or gross enrollment, or some facsimile therein as a proxy for what your kid’s educational experience would be. There are accessible and available faculty everywhere and the average size of a intro econ lecture or Freshman bio class is not indicative of what most upper level classes will be like.</p>

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<p>Agree on the need to set priorities… </p>

<p>I wasn’t afraid of the size of UD for my D because she always sought out teachers in HS - after school, on-line, etc. On the other hand, for my S, my college list has schools more in the 5,000 range (also, he’s not the rah rah type). We may expand to out of the northeast for him (to the more recent point made), but I think the northeast has appeal because there are so many Jewish students. While S would like to go somewhere warmer, I don’t think he’d fit in with a southern “vibe.” And not sure U of Miami is his thing either. Maybe we’ll look at Emory – but we need some financial safeties too – perhaps somewhere he’d get merit scholarship. Florida International? I don’t know…it’s a public research institution, but I think perhaps too “international.” Will also consider Wash U (only a 2 hour flight from here). But he’s not a B student…</p>

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<p>Blossom, I agree. ShawD’s two top contenders have 16000 students and 2400 students. Professors are apparently happy to talk with kids at the big school, though at the smaller school, if you are strong, they pick you out and mentor you. At the big school, you have to make yourself known, but the professors respond when you do.</p>

<p>For ShawSon, the class size issue had to do with talking in class – he loves discussion-oriented class – as well as talking outside of class. Harder to do on a regular basis with a 250 person class let alone 800. His biggest class last year was constitutional law and had 50 kids and he talked all of the time. Even this is limited at a small school. Although he has math classes of 20 or 25, there’s not a ton of back and forth discussion going on there.</p>

<p>Though one data point on talking outside of class. ShawSon took a freshman seminar and loved it. He couldn’t make office hours due to a scheduling conflict. The professor agreed to meet with him for one hour per week individually. This would probably not happen at a big school (probably not at most small schools either?).</p>

<p>But, I think kids who are proactive can do well at big schools as well as small.</p>

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<p>re setting priorities – i also really think that visiting a school is an essential part of deciding whether or not it should be on a student’s list. </p>

<p>when running down the ideal checklist, it may be easy to dismiss a school that fails on a couple of items - but a visit can give a student a chance to see if the school excites him/her in way that makes the lack of those items unimportant. </p>

<p>you can’t just rely on what other people tell you as to whether a school is “good” or not, or whether it meets certain criteria – better to form a broader list and visit – sometimes schools that sound perfect on paper/website/discussion list just don’t click in person, and sometimes schools that seems to be “lacking” on paper/website/discussion list come alive with an actual visit with an opportunity to talk to students and staff and simply get a feel for the place (i always advocate just sitting in the dining hall during a meal so the prospective student can just look around and see if he/she can envision themselves there).</p>

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<p>Lots of interesting thoguhts flowing around today!</p>

<p>Re the Boston area, on last year’s very prolific 3.0-3.3 and B+ threads (without the Jewish aspect highlighted), the New England discussion yielded nothing not discussed here except the Catholic schools (Sacred Heart, Fairfield, Providence etc). Otherwise, it was Endicott, UMA, UVM, URI etc–and folks disappointed there were not more (or cheaper) options.</p>

<p>The results for the rest of the country wer pretty similar–many good Catholic options (St Josephs of Philly; Loyola MD and Chi); big publics (Mich St.; Kansas, Bama, etc) and a scattering of LACs–(Lewis & Clark, Rhodes, Centre) around the country.</p>

<p>Which then puts people deciding their trade-offs. This is dedicated group of parents all seeking the perfect school for their children and hoping that, if they look hard enough, they can find it. </p>

<p>Everyone is entitled to their own priorities–football; active Hillel; small classes; cost; prestige; geography. I think the process has involved less “shooting down” than constructive mentioning of possible concerns or alternative views–some people believe small classes are overrated, but large Hillels essential; others the opposite.</p>

<p>By happenstance, several regular posters seek a particular combination–not too large, but with a strong business program and a significant Jewish population and not too far from the MidAtlantic–that limits the options (and the discussion) considerably. Most small schools tend to have more limited business programs and smaller Jewish populations, just as big sports schools seldom have small introductory classes.</p>

<p>This does not make their guidelines wrong. Yes, many kids change their majors, but assuming they will is risky. I might question whether someone going OOS for big time football is unwise in paying an extra $20k a year for 6 home games, but tens of thousands of families make that decision, and tens of thousands more pay that amount for warmer weather or just to get farther from home.</p>

<p>And, of course, many of us find out that for all our dedicated research, our kids reflexively tune out what we have to say or make a decision based on a tour guide being friendly or stuck up.</p>

2612

<p>First - thank you to everyone for your kind words on S2’s first ACT. We are pretty pleased with his 27. Wish it was a little higher so we could be “one & done” but he will take it again in the spring. And we will look at the reading issue further.</p>

<p>Second - I agree that it’s fine to have a list of parameters for what you are looking for in a college - but then there has to be flexibility as well. It reminds me so much of the home buying process - you find several houses with qualities you like - but they each have some defect - so which house has the least annoying issue? Same idea. We are trying to stay somewhat flexible on size - between 2000 - 16,000 or so and price, to a point. With S1’s process - he ended up at Wake Forest - very happily - but we obviously compromised on Jewish population.</p>

<p>I agree completely about not getting too hung up on major - as that will change so often. My only issue there is trying to find schools that have a business program, in case he does decide to go that route. But of late - he is saying Psychology - so who knows?</p>

<p>I’d be willing to expand our search into NY - but DH and S2 are not interested - so I am outnumbered in this regard. But at this point in the process, I’m pretty happy. We have 7-8 schools on the list that Naviance indicates are reasonable choices for him. They are all within our parameters for location, size, and majors. Most are reasonably priced. We are about halfway through our first round of visits. So - I feel pretty good about where we are in the process and I thank all of you for your help and input.</p>

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<p>also re size of class and classroom discussion – brings to mind this harvard class – [Justice</a> with Michael Sandel - Home](<a href=“http://justiceharvard.org/]Justice”>http://justiceharvard.org/) – i saw a reference to it a few months ago and watched a few lessons. just watch the 4 minute clip that loads when you go to the website – look at the size of that class and how the professor engages the class in active classroom discussion. ok, the professor is probably exceptional, but certainly goes to show you can’t assume a large class won’t have active discussions.</p>

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<p>mdcissp:</p>

<p>Maybe you can be reminded of some schools we mentioned in the past, maybe for you to reconsider and revisit:</p>

<p>Hofstra
Adelphi
Stoneybrook
URichmond
Bryant</p>

<p>I heard from several sources good things about UDelaware and now LINYmom is able to tell you firsthand about it…</p>

<p>When my two nephews looked at schools, one applied to only 4 and the other applied to 5…you don’t have to have a big number as long as you feel comfortable with your list…
good luck…is your S a senior now or junior?! We are busy applying now too, but my S has an ED we just applied to and two EA we’ll work on…</p>

<p>RM: My 2 boys LOVED the Eragon series too…in fact the older one just bought the book in Spanish! They both were always good readers, but the older one tapered off reading for pleasure as schoolwork got more involved…the younger one still needs to bring in a book of his choice each day to read whenever he has some “down time”.</p>

<p>I agree with Blossom and everyone else: You try to find the best “fit” you can…somehow it all works out!</p>

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<p>yaya- I agree with everything you’ve said and I respect other parent’s ability to make tradeoffs just as I did with my own kids. To each his own.</p>

<p>But not every tradeoff has equal merit. For a kid interested in a business career down the road but without much experience or knowledge about business, why is an economics major (offered at virtually every college in the universe) less of a “good option” than a specific “business major”? In many colleges which have both, Econ is the higher prestige discipline; in a college without an undergrad business program, Econ is the default option for kids interested in business.</p>

<p>So I’m just suggesting that parents widen the parameters a bit before shooting every suggestion down. (And there are many parents on this thread who will not even discuss a college with their kid that doesn’t have a defined “Business” major, even if the kid can’t articulate what he or she is interested in, why “Business”, etc.)</p>

<p>I have a colleague who runs actuarial recruiting for one of the top actuarial firms in the country. I know her target schools for recruiting. Not a single one of them is “nurturing” although I’m sure each of them has plenty of faculty and staff who are, in and of themselves, quite kind and interested in their students. But if I post that list for the folks here whose kids are interested in studying actuarial science, I will get hit with all the reasons why the schools have large classes, non-nurturing staff, are in dirty cities, etc.</p>

<p>Lots of folks trying to be helpful here. And we all want a good fit for our kids. Peace.</p>

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<p>I like the house analogy. When my H and I were looking for a house here, we had a short time to visit and choose. We saw 9 houses in 2 days, and made such a chart - size, price, location, etc. We awarded points to each house … and the “winner” made our faces fall because neither of us particularly liked it! So we redid the chart with a “subjective” column - each of us could give the house a score of 1-5 purely on how much we “liked” it. Total rearrangement!! </p>

<p>But then the next morning … with a day planned looking at rentals because no houses really made the cut … we saw a house that subjectively leaped off the chart. Our agent laughed because we threw a bunch of criteria out the window, made an offer and bought it. We knew because we liked it so much, we could make it work.</p>

<p>My D’s list has a few non-negotiable characteristics: lots of arts, a theater major of some kind and definite quality, a diverse intellectual atmosphere (at the school and in the surroundings). That’s about it. She’d LIKE city access and she’d LIKE to be in the northeast. She’s willing to give on size, location and the way the major is structured - and her list reflects that.</p>

<p>What she absolutely requires is that subjective “fit” feeling, which she is excellent at assessing and which so far has been a very reliable way for her to choose schools. I am good with that. She’s the one who has to live in this “house.”</p>

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<p>Blossom, the Economics vs. Business issue is interesting. I think a student headed for an MBA or JD will usually be better served by Economics–it is broader and many MBA programs are aimed at liberal arts undergrads.</p>

<p>Economics is certainly the more academically prestigious option–academics have always looked down on disciplines aimed at the real world. When I was at Yale, the President assailed the “grim preprofessionalism” of undergrads concerned about post-graduation prospects fo rmaking a living. There is a Nobel Prize for Economics, but not for Business.</p>

<p>However, for students not interested in grad school–and not attending top 50 schools–Business gives them real world skills that Economics does not. Recruiters from big companies will assume an Ivy Economics major has huge talent which just needs to be trained; tecruiters from small companies where new hires need to hit the deck running are far less likely to prefer the Towson Economics major to the Business major.</p>

<p>I certainly agree that actuarial firms do not care if undergrad schools are nurturing–the business world is increasingly pressurized and cut throat and any applicant who wants nurturing will never be hired, any more than someone who says keeping weekends free is important. And the nature of actuary work is that it attracts people who do not value the “touchy feely.”</p>

<p>Whether you want your child who has not yet developed strong academic interests or habits to be in a nurturing environment is something else, however. </p>

<p>It is similar to your comments about small class size–yes, those Cornell and Harvard professors cited electrify their classes, but Cornell and Harvard kids are likely to be sharply focused in class anyway, while the HS B students may not be. And are the lecturers in lower tier schools as electryifying?</p>

<p>Yes, kids in large classes who reach out to their professors will usually get a good reception–but the kids at less selective schools are less likely to reach out to professors who won’t recognize them when they walk in.</p>

<p>Yes, upper level courses at even large schools are often much smaller–but the transition in freshman year is often very hard on B students, so that is when small classes matter most.</p>

<p>We all just do the best we can and hope–the debate on a small but cohesive Hillel vs. a large Hillel or lots of Jewish kids in a cliquey environment vs. few Jewish kids in a friendly atmosphere can’t be “answered” either.</p>

<p>And it may all come down in any school to whether the freshman makes 1 good friend and finds 1 inspiring class.</p>

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<p>A possible negative to UDel (which unfortunately is my D’s favorite school so far). We had a meeting yesterday with her HS school college counsellor who said that these days (for metropolitan NY students) UDel has become a bit reachy for her. For the record, she has a 3.4 GPA and 27 ACT in a dual curriculum school. That was a dissappointment since she seemed to fit really well in the school’s Naviance criteria.</p>

<p>On top of that , UDel doesn’t have EA or ED admissions.</p>

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<p>EmmyBet - I love your continuation of the house analogy - shows how much those subjective vibes come into play - both with home buying and college selection.</p>

<p>On the Econ vs. Business major - I think there are those of us who are very concerned that our kiddos be able to find a job upon graduation. I think for a kid who is heading to grad school or law school - Econ might be fine. But I have a B student who has no desire at this point to continue his education beyond college - I want him to attend a more preprofessional program where he will graduate with marketable skills and be able to FIND A JOB! So, maybe it’ll be a business major with a pysch minor - or a Jewish studies minor - I just don’t want him to be one of these horror stories about the law school grad who is bartending, etc.</p>

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<p>mhc48 - I agree that those stats look iffy for Delaware (based on our MD hs Naviance) - but it can’t hurt to try. We are hoping to visit in the spring - after hearing such great things. One thing I don’t like - is what you said - no EA. They do priority with a 12/1 deadline - but you won’t get a decision until March - not a great turnaround time.</p>