Colleges for the Jewish "B" student (Part 1)

Parents Forum
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<p>This being a B students’ thread, I’ll say that this is how I think about these things (and it’s happened more than once): If a kid isn’t the type who knows they can get an A whenever they want to, it’s probably beneficial to take the AP/Honors class for the rigor and the challenge, and also so the grade can be weighted. There are subjects where my D probably would get a B and even hover into C territory even at the regular level (this was her issue in math for most of HS), so she continued to stay at the accelerated level and took her Bs with pride.</p>

<p>If a kid is miserable and over his/her head, that’s a very different story, especially if it’s impacting his/her whole life. But I’ll say, too, that junior year for many late bloomers is when they finally do put it together (she did get an A in math last year!). </p>

<p>Also, I’m curious about what’s the alternative? Is your HS big enough that he can switch to an Honors English? Our HS has only AP English, and then only senior year. It’s just not worth taking anything else. But if he can maintain rigor with another class, I think it makes sense to make a change.</p>

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<p>Psychmom: I think that 3 AP courses is lot for a junior. AP English is difficult and requires a LOT of reading, so it is very time consuming. I agree with Emmybet that it would be a good idea to switch to Honors English, if available. That would free up some time and energy to focus on his other courses. I realize that you understand this but need to convince your son. Have you asked him why he wants to stick with the class? Sometimes kids are embarrassed to drop to a lower class. That can be tough, but they need to look at the big picture of balancing rigor with good grades.</p>

<p>I think that AP courses are great at preparing kids for college, but the advantage of getting college credit can be over-rated. At large schools like UMCP, there are a lot of advantages for kids who come in with lots of AP credits. They can skip large entry level classes, and have priority for everything from housing to course selection. At many schools, however, students are better off not skipping into more advanced courses.</p>

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<p>I’m on the same page as EmmyBet, particularly for the B student. Even for an A student. I wouldn’t push. What are they interested in and what can they handle? They still are teenagers and school isn’t everything!</p>

<p>Here, current teachers recommend next year’s classes for our students. The teacher gives their opinion, based on student’s current performance, on which class for next year - on level, honors, AP. </p>

<p>For D, her strength is in English – so she took AP Language (11th) and AP Lit (12th). Did really well in the class - so it showed that she could handle the rigor - but only scored 3 on each AP test. Anyway, I believe UDel is giving her credit for those. We are not talking about top 20 schools that only give credit for 5s and maybe 4s.</p>

<p>D also took AP Art History (did well in the class, not so good on AP test) in 11th - her choice - and AP Environmental (did ok in the class, not so good on AP test) in 12th. Also her choice to take it.</p>

<p>After she took college french in 11th, the teacher said she should NOT take AP french - only 2 students were recommended for that. She took a french culture class instead, to continue with the language, and that better suited her.</p>

<p>When it came to the required econ and govt classes senior year (half year requirements), she was slated for honors, but just couldn’t fit it in her schedule. Her choice was AP or on level. She thought I would push her to do AP. Why? No way. Her guidance counselor said she really could do either and if she takes it on level, she would note in the rec to colleges that the honors class didn’t fit in her schedule (because of other high level classes she was taking). So, she took those classes on level, got A’s and was exempt from the finals.</p>

<p>I just don’t agree with the pushing of the APs (although the school administration pushes them extensively). I want my kids to be challenged - not killed with work - during HS. Plus, since our schools don’t start till after Labor Day, the AP kids always have tons of HS in the summer (which I am totally against - my kids are usually away in the summers - don’t get me started - that’s for another thread!). Honors has some summer HW, but nothing like AP (papers due in the middle of the summer and the first day of school, etc.). For S, he can handle more and has different interests so I will work with the guidance counselor and S to plan out the classes for him for the next 2 years; probably more APs than D; definitely different ones!</p>

<p>Short adcom story from UMass. The presenter asked the huge group of students at the info session - who is taking honors classes: many raised their hands. Then, who is taking AP classes: a few raised their hands. Presenter said “WHY?” Was that a joke? I don’t know. Didn’t give me a good impression of their expectations (D didn’t like the campus anyway, so it was off the list).</p>

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<p>My D just happens to be the type who got overwhelmed and felt down about herself because she didn’t get As in the high-level classes, but felt bored and no sense of pride getting As in the easier classes. Our HS is small and has no in-between. She’s had a mix of both all along - although looking back I can see that wherever she could go up, she did. And her friends tend to be in the higher-level classes, which is an important factor. </p>

<p>BUT at our HS there is no HW over the summer, nothing like the kind of workload at some of the schools mentioned here. Right now with 3 APs she’s sometimes pretty swamped, but she’s managing, and she’s getting the benefits of being challenged and with kids she enjoys. I don’t know how she’ll do gradewise - but that’s irrelevant, particularly because she can’t raise her GPA (mathematically impossible, in 10ths) or lower it more than .05, unless she gets Cs. </p>

<p>I’m just describing a point of view - and there are a lot of factors. If our HS was like LINY’s, I’d feel different. If my D were miserable (and she might be, if the approach were more intense), I’d feel different. But my general opinion is that rigor is more important than grades, with a healthy balance in mind, and most colleges say this is their focus, too (except UMass, I guess …).</p>

<p>Another tidbit is my D’s science experience right now: last year she struggled and struggled with AP Bio, felt AWFUL about herself all year, and bombed the AP test (so much that we’re removing it). This year she’s in Honors Chem, and frankly I’m surprised she’s even taking Science, since she planned to stop as soon as she’d taken the Bio. For some reason she picked this class, though. Last night I asked how it was going. EASY!!! Why? I guess she learned a lot about managing a hard science class last year (and did squeak out a B), and after AP this is a breeze. She can’t figure out what they even do in regular Chem, if this Honors class is so easy…</p>

<p>While as a parent I’m thinking, “this is maturity, this is experience” I’m not saying anything. She’ll figure it out; I think she knows that some of what’s happening is that she is finally learning how to be that better, confident student, even in her “worst” subject.</p>

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<p>Psych, re Hofstra, remember that “commuter school” and “suitcase school” are different–many schools in NJ and NY do not have many commuters, but tons of kids leave on the weekends. The Hofstra forum–and recent attendees from your LI HS–may be good resources, along with the students review and ******* sites. </p>

<p>Hofstra dropped a winning football program for lack of student attendance, which is a warning sign. Be sure to visit on a Saturday afternoon if it is a serious contender.</p>

<p>I love NYC, but there are other cities which are lively and whose schools are less selective than NYU–Boston (BU, Northeastern), Philly (Temple, Drexel), Pittsburgh (Pitt) Baltimore (Goucher/Towson), etc.</p>

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<p>re hofstra – 79% of the class of 2013 lived on-campus. 46.5% were from outside of NYS.
[Student</a> Profile - Admission - Hofstra University](<a href=“http://www.hofstra.edu/Admission/adm_stdprofile.html]Student”>Admission: Hofstra Student Profile | Hofstra University)</p>

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<p>unbelievablem, that is a very helpful link. It looks like they have been very successful at recruiting a very large number of international kids from 79 countries, which I think adds to the learning experience.</p>

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<p>re: AP classes, the way our school is set up is that there are two levels, AP and regular. They used to have an honors level but did away with it. When he made the schedule last spring, the GC and I both felt that he was on an upward progression and he should stay with mostly regular classes and take one AP in his favorite subject. Since he got the go-ahead from the teachers to take the other APs, he insisted on doing it. He puts this on himself, like some sort of competition. He has a couple of very academic friends, and I feel that’s where at least part of this is coming from.</p>

<p>I am trying to take a “wait and see” attitude while he works on figuring himself out. I put a call into the GC to avoid a crash situation. </p>

<p>Thanks for all the discussion and concern.</p>

<p>Re: NYC area schools vs. other nearby cities…I’d like to start with the closer schools, and then work my way out. Meanwhile, S avoids any talk of touring colleges. I wish the peer pressure would do its job in this area!</p>

<p>Yes, we have a stubborn one here, folks. But he truly is a sweetie and I hope eventually we’ll get somewhere.</p>

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<p>Just a thought, psychmom, my youngest daughter was also reluctant to talk about touring schools last spring. I finally figured out that it was in large part because of fear that she actually might not get into any school and have to go to a community college or at best someplace no one ever heard about or which she would not like or be proud of attending. With all her “smart” friends talking about other schools, she just didn’t know there were lots of alternatives for her and ones she’d like. I think that may not be uncommon with our kids (tough especially with mine whose older siblings attended CC “Top” schools.)</p>

<p>By gaining lots of knowledge here (especially in this thread!!), books, online and other places, i was able to show her that her preconceptions and hesitation was really not the case. And that openned her up to the excitement and interest in visiting. </p>

<p>I took my daughter first to the nearby nicest looking, most interesting schools I could find that were in her range and though no guarantees, she could actually get into. Once she saw that she could have a choice of size and location and vibe, she began to become more interested and participated more.</p>

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<p>Psych–good luck–you have a good plan</p>

<p>Re visits, I was able to work with parents of my son’s friends to arrange 2 joint visits. This made the rides more fun for the kids and they compared notes. Also, each boy was much more less willing to blow off the other parent’s questions!</p>

<p>Also, I think many kids who are shy; have not sought to be away from home; or do not like school very much fear that college is all work, no play and nasty upperclassmen. One look at a pretty, friendly campus with kids who dress like them and smile at strangers can go a long way to dispel that.</p>

<p>And make sure to pump the guide about clubs, intramurals and weekend activities, as well as looking at posters and flyers around campus–many kids who think they need a city or a huge school for fun activities don’t realize that even small colleges often have a lot of fun stuff happening.</p>

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<p>With D, I combined college tours with other fun things.</p>

<ul>
<li>I want to take you to SUNY Albany - you can visit your friend who lives there.</li>
<li>We are going to Boston for a Bar Mitzvah - we’ll do a tour of BU while we’re there</li>
<li>Another Bar Mitzvah in Boston - we’ll stop at UHartford on the way home (my S had lots of Bar Mitzvahs in Boston while D needed to look at colleges, so this worked out a lot!)</li>
</ul>

<p>She FINALLY got into it. Well, since she didn’t like Albany and BU (and several others) she realized she needed to keep looking so she could find schools she liked! Plus, we had fun in the car - a little college talk and a lot of singing to Rocky Horror (!) - and good mother/daughter bonding.</p>

<p>With S, I already told him that by the end of the college visits, he needs to teach me all the words to “We Didn’t Start the Fire” (he actually knows them). All work and no play…</p>

<p>I think bringing a friend is a good idea too, but I just wanted my D all to myself!</p>

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<p>I discovered long before college visits (picking up and driving at night to or from parties or sports) that it is amazing what two or more kids in the back seat will feel free to say, or discuss, obviously within your hearing, while you are driving them somewhere.</p>

<p>Information otherwise considered “TOP SECRET” or “Hide from Parents at all costs” (not bad stuff, just on general Teen principles), becomes something you can hear and then later discuss with them that you might never have known or heard otherwise.</p>

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<p>For those of us with kids with learning disabilities, I thought the following article written by the President of Dean College was sensible. [Campus</a> Overload - Navigating admissions with a learning disability](<a href=“http://voices.washingtonpost.com/campus-overload/2010/08/navigating_college_admissions.html]Campus”>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/campus-overload/2010/08/navigating_college_admissions.html). </p>

<p>With ShawSon, we followed most of these steps, though we found that we got much more useful information from disabilities deans after ShawSon was accepted than before, when they weren’t really willing to do the work necessary to tell us what they’d really do and what the process would be for getting various accommodations.</p>

<p>I’m going to post in the learning disabilities section if it isn’t there.</p>

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<p>A visit to a local school of any kind is a great way to start. Don’t even suggest that they might go there (although you can secretly pick one that does have a chance of interesting them), just say that it’s a practice tour to get the feel of looking at a college. Big long trips might be scary and make them fear that they’re wasting your money if they don’t like the school. Once they’ve seen one school, they have a frame of reference.</p>

<p>Also I’m a big fan of finding local schools that resemble faraway ones, as kind of a “facsimile” to visit: “XYZ is more or less like this in size, location, style, etc. - do you think it’s worth traveling to see it?”</p>

<p>After one visit you’ll find out what it is about visits that turn them on or off. I heard a story about a girl who ignored everything, just wanted to sit in the coffee shop and eavesdrop on conversations - that was her idea of what kind of place it was.</p>

<p>Even if all he cares about are the sports facilities (and who of us hasn’t been on a tour where a certain percentage of the people light up when the guide says, “Now we’ll head to the fitness center”?), he’s finding a basis for comparison. I also believe in the “school is school” mantra, and it’s mostly the personal details that determine fit, anyway.</p>

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<p>I agree with EmmyBet that it’s best to start touring local schools. You can probably check out different sizes and settings within an hour of home. </p>

<p>I think that visiting is very important. Both of my daughters were suprised to find that some of the schools they loved on paper (or online) felt really different in person. I think one of the most important factors in picking a school is the gut feeling a kid has when they visit. My favorite story is my daughter’s friend who said as they pulled into the parking lot at JMU “I love it here!.” She’s now a very happy junior at the school.</p>

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<p>I think perception of fit is interesting. At one level, whether a kid is happy or not may be more influenced by whether they find a great friend or roommate freshman or sophomore year than by whether the school has 3000 or 7000 students or whether the campus feels good from the parking lot or whether people eat in one dining hall or many. Most kids (not all) will be able to adapt to varying conditions, though some will be better than others for them objectively. For example, ShawD doesn’t think she’d be happy at schools with a high percentage of Greek life or a female/male ratio in excess of 60/40. Both would actually be preferable for her, but could she be happy at schools with Greek life or 70/30 ratios? I’m sure. They’ll also change. I have one friend whose daughter was an aerospace engineering student at an Ivy and had paid internships from NASA who took a music course and decided to major in music and is now an opera singer (good thing that her parents have some money and that she is smart, personable and attractive and has a supportive husband and between them can pursue her career interest. One of my roommates who was a psych major decided during his senior year to become a doctor and then later to go into public health. Kids who want an urban setting may not understand the value of relative isolation (kids bond much better and form deeper affection for schools, I think, when they are somewhat isolated) unless they experience it.</p>

<p>And, all kids are different. ShawD has benefited greatly from touring (though she and I are less excited by two schools that we saw in a day when it was absolutely pouring and were more excited by schools we saw on days that were sunny – any effect there, you think?). In contrast, ShawSon thought visiting schools before applying was dangerous – he didn’t want to fall in love with some place that would reject him – and with a couple of exceptions only visited schools after he was accepted. His second choice school had the perfect major for him and he’s got to pull it together where he is. Nonetheless, he’s very happy and successful where he is.</p>

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<p>Very interesting discussion on this thread on the question of how best to serve the academic needs of a HS B/B+ student looking toward college. With the various subcategories of B student (late bloomer, underachiever, the solid B student, etc.), it’s definitely not a one size fits all. Even with the component of a Jewish community, there seems to be a fairly wide range of expectations/desires. </p>

<p>I love all the discussion of the pros and cons of individual colleges, because it’s helpful in identifying what’s most important about the college experience. My D’12 will be casting a wide net in her college search. Several months ago, when I brought up the idea of visiting a few colleges over the summer, she was reluctant to do so - I think in part because she’s afraid that the colleges she’ll be able to get into won’t be the ‘desirable’ ones. But it was very helpful to her to visit several this summer. She was able to begin her junior year with greater confidence that there is a good and ‘desirable’ college out there for her. For the visits, we visited a few within several hours of home, and few that are outside of our region. She learned more about what’s important to her (campus size and location including rural/suburban/urban, school spirit around sports, dining facilities (central vs. multiple scattered), etc. As for major, that’s pretty wide open for her (possibly psychology) so at this point not a limiting factor in the search.</p>

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<p>I agree 100% that visiting colleges is crucial. I know that “back in the day” people went to college sight unseen - but that seems very odd to me now.</p>

<p>One of the more interesting things I have experienced with S2 is that while all of the colleges on our list sound fairly similar on paper - small-medium size, mid-Atlantic or Carolina location, at least some Jewish life, admits B+ students, offers business/sports mgmt majors, etc. - in reality - the vibe of each school is different. S2 could see himself at some of the schools - not so much at the others. </p>

<p>I think visiting schools at the beginning of junior year has been incredibly beneficial - wish we had done same with S1. It has really helped S2 get a little more focused academically and has made the abstract notion of “college” much more tangible.</p>

<p>I would highly recommend to parents of juniors - if you are reading this and have not visited any colleges yet - you really should do so. Start locally - with what you have within a 1.5 - 2 hour drive. Most colleges do visits on Saturdays during the academic year. Even if your child does not end up applying to that particular school - it will still be time well spent.</p>

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<p>I think RM is absolutely right. I would add that visiting when a college is out of session (or on a weekend morning) is of very limited value, because kids are acutely focused on what the students look and act like. </p>

<p>Parents of juniors, now is a good time to discuss with your child which teachers might be good sources of recommendations (senior year teachers are not as good, especially if applying EA/ED). If your child is not one who goes all out in every class, this can be an inducement to the child to try very hard in at least 2 classes.</p>

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<p>We actually did a “starter tour” for all of our kids at a local school that they were somewhat familiar with from field trips/sporting events/summer programs so that they had a baseline of how tours worked and what to expect at other, less familiar schools.</p>