<p>chocchip - there is the often repeated wisdom that it is better to get a B in an honors class than an A in a non-honors class. I generally subscribe to that - but when S2 was struggling to earn a B in honors Algebra II last year - and having known from S1 that Honors precalc would be even harder - we did move him “down” to regular precalc - very wise decision. This does mean he cannot take AP Calculus next year - but I really doubt he would have anyway - his hs offers honors Calculus as the lowest option - so I guess he will try that. I think just getting to Calculus in hs looks pretty good for most kids - especially a “B” student.</p>
<p>While S1 took honors/AP everything, we are being more selective with S2. One AP class and 2 honors classes this year - probably the same for next year. Trying to show he can handle some challenging classes - but also trying to be realistic about what he is capable of handling.</p>
<p>ccc: We have grappled with the course rigor issue with my younger daughter. My daughter has taken a mix of GT (weighted above honors), honors and regular classes in HS. She is taking 3 AP courses as a senior. She has a high GPA and good test scores, but many students in her class have taken a more rigorous schedule. I worry that this may hurt her applications, but she was realistic with her choices so I think she’s okay. She’s the type of student who seems happiest when she is challenged, but not overly stressed and I don’t think she would have like the competitive atmosphere at the most selective schools. We found that she needed to balance her schedule each year.</p>
<p>If a kid is struggling too much in an honors class I see no point in keeping them in it. Not every kid is honors or AP material in every class (and some aren’t in any class.) They may need the slower pace of a regular class and so what if they do?</p>
<p>As a frequent lurker on this thread, I’m reminded again why I love it. So much thoughtful and respectful dialogue. About math, I take comfort in RVM’s comment that just getting to calculus in hs looks pretty good for most kids - especially “B” students. In our family, D2 struggles with math at a challenging hs. Last year as a sophomore, she probably envisioned that she would drop math after pre-calc. But her confidence and determination seem to have increased, and she hopes to take some level of calculus (honors or possibly AB). If she does, it will make for a more challenging senior year, but hopefully also rewarding in the long run. We’re trying not to focus on her grades so much as on work ethic, improvement, and a solid curriculum of learning in hs.</p>
<p>I agree that some kids do better in easier classes, but sometimes it’s hard to gauge when to move them. Last year my daughter was extremely stressed in the beginning of the year. She ended up moving to an easier math course and dropping from AP to Honors English. In retrospect, she felt that the math switch was the right choice, but she wished that she had stuck with the harder English class. Unfortunately, if you wait too long to make the switch, the student’s grade may already be pretty low. At our HS you can move to a lower level during the school year, but your grade moves with you.</p>
<p>I have learned that it’s a good idea to listen to the prior year’s teacher about course selection. Although this does depend on the competency of the teacher.</p>
<p>Rodney - I also grew up in NY and think that precalc is just what they used to call trig. I actually took honors trig in 10th grade, so everytime my D tells me how much harder hs is today then it was back in “my day” I remind her of that. Of course her response is that I was just a weird math freak.</p>
<p>Rockvillemom - glad that your son is doing so much better. I am so annoyed with D. She got a C on the first math quiz and decided to retake it. I told her not to, that it was the beginning of the quarter and she may need that retake later. Did she listen to me…no. So she retook it and only got a B. Got an A on the next quiz and a E on this most recent quiz. I can’t stand the crazy grade swings in precalc. </p>
<p>Regarding the discussion of honors vs. non-honors precalc, it seems that in our hs most of the kids drop down to non-honors precalc unless they are real serious math studentse. I do not want my D to take calc next year. She is a humanities and arts person and that just isn’t the class for her. Hopefully, there will be another math option for her. Maybe statistics? </p>
<p>I just don’t understand how kids are supposed to excel at everything now. She takes 3 AP classes, honors chemistry and regular math. Isn’t that enough?</p>
<p>Peonies: You make a very good point. The real goal is to have kids who are prepared for the rigor of college. I think it’s really important to take a challenging schedule senior year.</p>
<p>Our hs is showing “Race to Nowhere” in early December and I am hoping to attend. While I do not see S2 as the type of student described by the film - S1 fits that profile exactly. And much of our recent conversation about how many honors/AP courses and when to move “down” from honors to regular also ties in. Although I often get frustrated with S2 - I think in many respects he has a healthy attitude and believes in having time in his schedule for fun - whether it be playing sports for fun or tv/video games - his leisure time - his choice. I just watched the trailer for the film and was so struck by how sad and stressed these kids are. </p>
<p>Has anyone seen the film? What did you think?</p>
<p>A good friend of mine once described her third kid as “my happy child.” </p>
<p>We decided when boychild moved to his private school in his freshman year to let his teachers and GC decide what level courses he should be in as they are the ones who interact with him and see his work product so are, imo, the best to determine the appropriate classes. His freshman yr he was in all regular classes, soph yr he had one honors class -by junior yr he was in all honors and also this yr with Physics class at the CC. We had no “plan” other than to let his academic development evolve naturally. </p>
<p>He will be accepted at several colleges he will be very happy at. What more is necessary than that?</p>
<p>peonies - my impression is that colleges really respect taking calculus, particularly since so many kids don’t get there. I think it is held in much higher regard than stats - even AP Stats. I do believe taking a strong schedule senior year is important - and that should include 5 solids - even for a "B student.</p>
<p>emilybee - I agree with you to a point. But I’m not sure if teachers and the GC know the whole picture. If a teacher recommends an honors class in her subject area - would she be aware of how many other teachers have recommended him for an honors level class? The recommendation taken in isolation might be fine - but combined with the other teachers - it might prove to be too much. It also depends on EC/sports and other time commitments.</p>
<p>There’s also the issue of how the situation will be handled if the schedule proves to be too hard. You want your kid to at least try the harder level class - but then if it is too much - it can affect their work in every class. And then if you decide it is just too much and to have them switch down a level - they will end up with a WP (withdraw passing) on their transcript - not exactly a desirable outcome. I like input from the teachers and GC - but in the end - I think it is a family-based decision.</p>
<p>RVM, I didn’t have that worry since boychild’s school is very small and the GC and his teachers all communicate with each other on a daily basis. You get that kid of attention when you pay tuition.</p>
<p>D rec’d a 78 in regular algebra2/ trig last year as a sophomore. And that was with tutoring. She had done mid-80’s in Algebra and Geometry. She is advanced a year in math for our district even though she ended up in regular classes.</p>
<p>This year she got an 80 on her first test in pre-calc followed by two 64’s. Her math teacher felt she did not have a strong enough basis from last year to really ever do well in the class. Our option was to drop her to College Algebra (and I agreed), but it could not be worked into her schedule. So on the advice of her guidance counselor we dropped math all together! What a relieve! The only way she could have fit College Algebra into her schedule is by dropping choir. </p>
<p>I do not know what the outcome will be, but her guidance counselor loves her and says he will try to work it out. Not even sure we will pick up math again next year. She may double up in art because she wishes to become an art major. Her reach school is NYU…but since she is applying as a studio art major, academics will be considered in equal proportion to talent (her portfolio.)</p>
<p>She is going to devote this year to practicing SAT/ACT math (with tutoring.) Our goal is to hopefully break at least 600 on the math section. She got a 540 on September’s SAT. Not great, but a doable starting point. She did get a 650 on reading so we no longer need to worry about that in terms of tutoring.</p>
<p>D is our younger D. I have seen such a mixed bag of admission results from D1’s friends, that I am more relaxed this time around. Plenty of kids who dropped academics still managed to get admitted to their first class colleges. D1 is at NYU and has not taken one math class, nor does she intend to. She took computers instead to fulfill the requirement.</p>
<p>I am happy she will not have another math C (or worse) on her report card. A higher GPA will serve her better.</p>
<p>uskoolfish - I am sure you know what is best for your child and have considered how dropping math will affect her options. But generally speaking, I think most reasonably selective colleges want to see at least 3 years of hs math.</p>
<p>These are the requirements from Salisbury University - probably the least competitive school on S2’s list - just offering this as a sample:</p>
<p>“Students planning to enter college are encouraged to complete the college preparatory curriculum in high school. Within the college preparatory curriculum, a prospective student should have met the following minimum requirements for admission: four credits in English; three credits in the social sciences; two credits in laboratory-based sciences; three credits in mathematics, including Algebra I and II and geometry; and two years in a world language or technology approved credit. Students with additional preparation in these areas will be considered more competitive for admission.”</p>
<p>And this is from Indiana University:</p>
<p>“7 credits (semesters) of mathematics, including 4 credits of algebra and 2 credits of geometry (or an equivalent 6 credits of integrated algebra and geometry), and 1 credit of additional college preparatory math”</p>
<p>So, it looks like as long as you have gotten past 2 years of algebra and 1 year of geometry - you have met the bare minimum. But I would still hesitate to not take math at all as a junior or senior.</p>
<p>I hear you, Uskoolfish! D will have only 3 years of HS math-- she was through algebra 1 in middle school so is in precalc (very rough but she’s managing a B) as a junior and that will be it. I asked GC yesterday about dropping math for senior year and he said he would call NYU (her most reachy school) and ask what they suggest. I feel immensely lucky to have a GC like this at our rural, regional public school. D is a very focused, hardworking student, struggles in math and science but excels elsewhere-- she will not have the best GPA because she doesn’t take honors or AP math/sci. But I can’t see pushing her in areas where she has little ability, just for the sake of a college admission, because she is learning and growing so much in other classes. Of course, time will tell if this will work. But I’m very glad to hear your D’s story.</p>
<p>“Since our applicants come from a broad range of high schools from around the United States and many foreign countries, it is difficult to recommend a single course of study that would maximize your chances of admission. However, we would expect your preparation to include the following: four years of English with a heavy emphasis on writing, 3-4 years of history/social studies, 3-4 years of mathematics, 3-4 years of a laboratory science, and 2-3 years of a foreign language. Please note that these are minimum requirements for consideration. Students most competitive for admission will exceed these minimums. International students should be completing a program of study that would qualify them for admission to selective universities in their own country.”</p>
<p>uskoolfish, I would really caution against dropping math so soon. My three kids all applied to schools that were not especially well known and all required or at least strongly recommended four years of math. Our HS actually requires four years of all the core subjects to make it possible for the grads to get into the State U’s.</p>
<p>Congratulations, Seiclan, to your son on his national science honor society induction!
Kudos to rockvillemom (if we are your village, you are our mayor, rvm!) for inspiring us with your solutions to common dilemmas…things seem to be working out for your S2.</p>
<p>One thing that I would like to say about Calculus…if a student takes calculus in his or her senior year, whether it be AP, honors, or regular, regardless of AP score, I firmly believe that the student should take it again in college. An exception would be if the student is never going to take another math class in his or her life because he or she is totally into the humanities. But, even if the student is going to take business, or a social science for which he or she needs statistics, or a science, he or she should NOT accept AP credit and should just take calculus again.
Everyone in the college calculus class will have taken calculus before! The student is likely to understand it in much more depth the second time around, and to apply it to statistics, chemistry, business, or whatever.
Of course, if a student took BC Calculus in 11th grade, got a 5 on the AP test, and went on to Calc 3 or Linear Algebra in 12th grade, that student would not take Calculus again.</p>
<p>And, our news: D2 was admitted to Penn State University Park (“main campus”)!</p>
<p>levirm - congratulations on Penn State - wonderful news! And I agree with you completely re calculus - I see S2 taking calculus as a senior preparing him to take it as a college freshman. I would be more concerned to have a college freshman taking calculus for the first time - particularly if it is a large intro class.</p>