Colleges for the Jewish "B" student (Part 1)

Parents Forum
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<p>Levrim, Congratulations to your daughter! People in my area love Penn State (some kids choose it over UMD).</p>

<p>I would also caution against dropping math too soon. I think that most schools will want to see at least one course past Geometry and Algebra II. I’m not sure how much impact this would have for a student applying for a fine arts major, but I would hate to have a choice like this keep my child out of a school. For students looking at very selective schools,my older daughter’s guidance counselor said that she needed to have calulus on her transcript to have her schedule considered “most rigorous.” Levrim’s advice about college calc is right on target. Most students repeat at least one level in college.</p>

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<p>I wanted to mention that while I think that students need four years of math, I don’t think that has to include calculus. My older two kids only went up to pre-calc. My daughter, now in grad school at Vanderbilt, actually sent me a text message a couple of weeks ago telling me to tell the HS guidance counselor (all of my kids had the same one) to counsel students aiming for health or teaching or social science fields to take statistics in High School. She did not take it then or in undergrad and is now having a rough time taking it at the grad level as a required class. My current HS senior would have taken AP stats instead of Calculus but the stats teacher is the same one he had trouble with in 10th grade.</p>

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<p>levirm - Mazel Tov on the Penn State acceptance!</p>

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<p>Hi Everyone
I hope you don’t mind a new poster on this thread. My DD3 is a very poor math student but our state requires 4 years of math to graduate hs. Her older sisters both advised statistics instead of calc and I think this choice has worked out much better. Of course, her future is definitely in the humanities/social sciences. I guess if your S/D are thinking science or health professions maybe calc is needed. BTW, I am happy to report she FINALLY finished the common app and has 1 school with a completed application–University of Denver. I know it’s been mentioned before, but it is a very nice place for the Jewish B student.</p>

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<p>^it surely is, especially if your last name ends in “ski” ;)</p>

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<p>Welcome poppymom! It’s always nice to get some new contributors on this thread. I agree that statistics is a better choice for students interested in humanities/social sciences. Congratulations on getting the first application completed. It’s quite a process. Good luck to you and your daughter.</p>

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<p>I would caution against dropping math too. My D had to take an online math placement test before college orientation to determine which class she would have to take when she got to college. She took the placement test between prom and graduation… and her brain was already mush on math (she had just finished taking Intro to Calc/honors level). She didn’t think she did as well on the placement test as she should have. I can’t imagine how it would have went if she hadn’t had math for a year. She’s taking that required math class next semester, so we will see how that goes.</p>

<p>Our GC also always cautioned against dropping a major subject area senior year. Just doesn’t look good to colleges.</p>

<p>I’ve been out of town on business for two days and missed the Penn State acceptance post from levarim. Mazel Tov!</p>

<p>BTW - We are also paying exorbitant school taxes in our district on Long Island. Taking the good with the bad…</p>

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<p>The University of Maryland is considering requiring four years of high school math: </p>

<p>UM system considers toughening math requirements
Applicants would have to take 4th math course, take math in senior year
December 01, 2009|By Childs Walker | <a href="mailto:childs.walker@baltsun.com">childs.walker@baltsun.com</a></p>

<p>Students applying to state universities would have to take a fourth math course and take math during their senior year of high school under revised requirements to be considered this week by the university system’s Board of Regents.</p>

<p>Math skills atrophy in students who don’t take a course their senior year, and those students are more likely to need costly remediation in college, said Chancellor William E. Kirwan, a strong proponent of the tougher application requirements.</p>

<p>“Math is not a spectator sport,” said Kirwan, a one-time math professor. “If you get away from it for a year, you lose a lot. The research is pretty clear and consistent that it makes a difference to have math your senior year.”</p>

<p>The new requirements would ask students to complete Algebra II and if they do so before senior year, to take another course at least as difficult. The changes, crafted in collaboration with the Maryland State Department of Education, would go into effect for students beginning ninth grade in 2011.</p>

<p>The requirements would align with a national trend toward toughening math standards, part of a larger quest to produce more science, technology, math and engineering, or STEM, professionals. The National Governors Association is leading an effort to develop core standards for high schools across the nation and those standards might include similar math requirements.</p>

<p>“This is very consistent with what’s happening nationally,” Kirwan said. “Math turns out to be a huge hurdle for students considering STEM careers, so we hope the greater continuity can help to address that. So much depends on analytical reasoning and mathematical reasoning these days.”</p>

<p>It’s not clear how many students would be affected by the proposed changes. It’s common for strong students to take pre-calculus as sophomores and AB calculus as juniors. But those who do not wish to major in math or science in college sometimes eschew BC calculus or AP statistics as seniors. It’s unclear whether high schools might realign their math tracks so more of these students would not take calculus until senior year or push more students to take statistics as seniors.</p>

<p>Pat Baltzley, director of pre-K-to-12 mathematics for Baltimore County, said counselors already encourage students to take math as seniors, though she acknowledged that many do not.</p>

<p>“We’re in a very good position to deal with what the University of Maryland would require,” she said.</p>

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<p>Welcome poppymom!</p>

<p>Many schools offer alternatives to calc. For example, Susquehanna, which has many music, graphic design and theater majors, offers both stat options and introduction to logic.</p>

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<p>To be honest, if my state didn’t require 4 years of math to graduate, I don’t think any force would have convinced DD3 to take math this year–but there she is and it’s probably for the best. No, she has absolutely no STEM interests but most colleges are going to require at least 1 math class (usually stats for those not in STEM) and I think it’s better to keep your “brain in the game”.</p>

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<p>D has completed 3 years of math so far…algebra, geometry and algebra 2/ trig. She received a score in the mid 80’s on all of her NYS math regents. There is no point in continuing in a class that will produce another C at best. Without doubt, a low grade will put her in a worse scenerio than dropping math for now. Since she had a scheduling conflict and was a year ahead anyway in math, this “off” year should not be the end of the world. More than likely she will take College Algebra or Statistics next year. I know that NYU does not care if students take Statistics instead of Calc/ pre-calc. As I said, my older D will be graduating NYU next year without taking one math class! She took AP Calc senior year and scored a 3. She felt it was totally worthless as she didn’t get AP credit for it at NYU and did not need it anyway.</p>

<p>My first choice would have been for D to take 4 years of each academic subject (actually math would have been 5), but the fact that she is a year ahead does give her some wiggle room.</p>

<p>If she gets into NYU it will be based on the fact that her admission will be judged 50% portfolio/ 50% academics. If it were based on pure academics, her GPA (just about 90–brought down by math and chem last year) would be a problem. I’m still hoping that she will do well enough on her SAT’s which probably makes for half of her “academics”. Time will tell. Plus she will probably do a summer program there which might help give her somewhat of an edge.</p>

<p>I would be a lot more nervous if she wasn’t planning on an art major. Her current list is: Pratt Institute, NYU, School of Visual Arts, Goucher, New Paltz, Purchase, FIT, Parsons, MICA, CW Post, Northeastern, Syracuse, Skidmore, SMFA/Tufts and BU. Hopefully this list willl be reduced to 10ish.</p>

<p>At some point you do have to begin to individualize the whole process. Her guidance counselor did not give a moment’s hesitation to dropping math for now, because he knew it was right for her. He knows she is artistic, musical, a leader and a hard worker. He never suggested that she drop choir for math because he knows the importance of music to her. I trust that he will do the right thing for her in explaining the situation if need be.</p>

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<p>My understanding is that Colleges only count math that is taken in High School. Perhaps your school is on a block schedule uskoolfish?</p>

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<p>Algebra can be taken in 8th grade by advanced students or 9th grade by all others. It is a high school level class with a NY State regents. Student’s grades in the class are shown on their high school transcript whether they take it in 8th or 9th grade. The same for Earth Science. As a current junior, D has completed 3 high school level classes in science beginning with earth science in 8th grade and she is currently taking anatomy and physiology and will take a sience in senior year for a total of 5 classes in high school level science.</p>

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<p>poppymom - welcome - always fun to see someone new joining our conversation.</p>

<p>momjr - thanks for posting that info - very interesting. I do understand the perspective of those who have students who dislike math or who are pursuing an art major and don’t need math - but I think those situations are the exception to the rule. My position is that most students should take 4 years of hs math, unless there are extenuating circumstances.</p>

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<p>D was also one year ahead on the NYS math curriculum on the honors level and managed high b’s or low a’s, she signed up for AP calculus this year, but ended up dropping it after a week. Hated it and since she isn’t planning on studying math or science in college she decided the pain wasn’t worth it. So far it hasn’t hurt her college admissions. She did do pretty well on the math SAT. I was actually proud of her for dropping it rather than doing something that was making her miserable just because she felt she had to! She still is in 3 other AP classes, but her life is much saner compared to the last 2 years!!!</p>

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<p>Gee I wish Mass. would list advanced 8th grade math on the transcript. I guess I agree with everyone here-- the more math the better if it’s possible for you. But if it’s nearly impossible, as in the case of my D and uskoolfish and holliesue… then I think a 17 year old has the right to follow her own scholarly interests. D has managed B’s in math basically by working so hard the teachers couldn’t bear to give lower grades, so she’s not missing much actual learning by not going on. </p>

<p>usk, your D’s list has a lot in common with mine (though D’s is for theater)…and D also has a 90 average more or less, so there’s definitely some reaching there. But honestly the auditions make the process so subjective that a lack of calculus is the least of our worries!</p>

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<p>uskoolfish, That does work out well for your daughter. Our school district does not work that way. There is only one MS and one HS and the MS students follow the same curriculum and take the same math tests as the HS but the grades do not go on the HS transcript. That can be good or bad. If you do well then you would start HS with a nice GPA and one year of math done, but if you do badly it’s a bad start. The way we do it, it’s a clean slate and if students feel a little iffy about Algebra or Algebra II (both offered in MS) they can take it again in 9th grade and there will be no indication that they took it previously.</p>

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<p>I haven’t been available to post anything all day until now…looks like I missed a great discussion!</p>

<p>S2, my freshman, took Algebra I in 8th grade, Geometry (honors) now in 9th grade, and then will take Algebra II and pre-calc, and hopefully calc. He is also taking honors Bio and Spanish. Next year we will drop the honors Spanish and just do regular so he can have more time to concentrate on the two honors courses in Math and Science.</p>

<p>My dilemma is keeping him on the honors track for both Math and Science. My gut feeling tells me to keep him in honors, especially since he is leaning toward studying Engineering in college…but he is struggling in Bio. But, on the other hand, this is his first semester at a new school, he did have an (awful) subsitute in Bio for the first month until the regular teacher came back, so maybe I need to sit tight and wait it out.</p>

<p>I believe at our school, my S can take honors straight through, and choose an honors class over an AP class…but I’ll cross that bridge down the road.</p>

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<p>Oops…I forgot to welcome peonies and poppymom! :)</p>

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<p>Gwen…older D is at NYU for vocal performance (musical theatre.) Her initial college list had some of the same schools. It seems that if a school is artsy, it offers good programs in both music, theatre and art.</p>