<p>I think you need to be very careful before you offer up to pay for a rabbi to participate in a Catholic service, as one of your proposed solutions. Generally speaking, at most, rabbis are permitted by the priests to read a psalm (even in Hebrew!) or say a few words to the family… within an overwhelmingly Catholic Mass. Some rabbis who participate in interfaith ceremonies can work out more with Protestant clergy, but it’s a different scene within a Catholic church wedding. For your D, you might connect the dots this way: the festive party celebrates what just happened at the “20 minute ceremony.” If the couple expects you to pay for a party after their ceremony, the only party you can celebrate is a civil ceremony, as conducted by a Justice of the Peace. After that day, she will venture whichever way she will, but I don’t think you should have to use family resources to throw a party after a Catholic ceremony. Will she take communion during the ceremony? If it were me, I’d have trouble enjoying my hors d’oeurvres right after witnessing that, or paying the bill for same. She’s asking soooo much of you as a Mom. I’d settle for the J.P. and draw the line there. If she intends to become Catholic, she will have many years ahead to enjoy the beautiful church services on her time.</p>
<p>I am so sorry, gerbilmom. My D is currently dating a noon-Jewish boy and it is all I can do to keep my mouth shut and constantly pray that she comes to her senses. Other than the Jewish thing, there are just so many other reasons he is completely wrong for her.</p>
<p>Gee whiz: I miss a couple pages of this thread and so much catching up to do! :)</p>
<p>First, welcome to gerbilmom. We had guinea pigs in our household as our pets, but unfortunately they’ve now passed away. But they hung in there a LONG time! We fed them real well :D</p>
<p>Too much to catch up on…need to let it all digest a bit. C43: Maybe we were at Tel Yehuda together! Umich: love your answer to S re: asian wife!</p>
<p>Collage: Wow. Pretty intense. I would have been VERY angry if they hadn’t told me ahead of time. RVM: Don’t know what to tell you, not a good postion to be in. Do you go to keep the peace? I guess. Not an easy answer.</p>
<p>As a parent of two boys like a few of you are, it would pain me so much for either one of my boys to marry non-jewish. I’ve never had to deal with this topic in my family yet. My three sisters & I all married jewish men, although my mom actually encouraged me to date a lot of different men when I was growing up. I did! I dated a Catholic guy, a Brazilian guy, a black guy, several jewish guys too…but when it came to marrying someone, there was no question that I would marry someone jewish. So at that point I just put myself in a position to meet jewish men. I was then in my mid-20’s and ready to find a jewish guy. My mom was a very “cool” mom…my dad much more tradional as far as dating goes. (maybe because he had 4 daughters! :))</p>
<p>I had a wonderful jewish upbringing, conservative, bat mitzvah, confirmation, Young Judaea, Israel in college, camps, etc.,etc.,etc. I live in a town now where I know several jewish men/non-jewish wives that are raising their chldren jewish. Some of the women have converted and some have not.</p>
<p>Now that my oldest S is getting ready to leave home to experience college, I just hope that the foundation I have set up for him and his brother will be strong enough for them to want to date jewish girls! And marry them too!</p>
<p>gerbilmom - I feel so bad for what you are going through. I think that your line in the sand is very reasonble. Why should you pay for a Catholic wedding for your daughter and the party that celebrates it? At this point in her life, she is an adult, she has made a decision and should be able to stand behind it. If she needs you to pay for this wedding, then you get a say.</p>
<p>The other thing is, has your daughter converted? I don’t believe she can get married inside of a Catholic church if she is not Christian. I don’t know how long it takes to convert, but if she has her heart set on a church wedding, that may buy you some time. I know you can have a priest marry you outside of a church, at least that would spare you the church wedding.</p>
<p>I also don’t know how many Catholic weddings your D has been to, but I have been to a fair number and they are loooonnnnnggggg. I remember my first one, when the bride and groom sat down, I was thinking, what? How long is this going to take? I soon had my answer. LOL!</p>
<p>Also, if it’s a church wedding with a full mass, can you explain to her how uncomfortable you will be during communion as well as during all of the kneeling, etc. You will feel like outsiders at her wedding. How could she expect you to pay for that?</p>
<p>CCC ~ Enjoyed your post, only want to say this: after someone converts they are “a Jewish wife” and should be honored with that language. </p>
<p>In our home, concerning future partners, I never told my kids “marry Jewish” but that I’m open to anyone who is either already Jewish, in process of becoming Jewish, or curious/willing to study seriously with courses. And that when their S.O. takes a course, they should attend also so they can grow and discuss together. They meet so many wonderful people in college, I saw this message as a way to give my kids breathing space, and demonstrate I’m more about perpetuating the Jewish People than being biased against any person who isn’t (yet) a Jewish person. Some amazing individuals are converting into and enriching Jewish life today. In general, the person within a young mixed couple who cares the most prevails. I urged them to be the person who cares the most.</p>
<p>Wow I am so heartened by all the responses! Thank you.</p>
<p>Vitrac, my thoughts exactly. The justice of the peace/judge idea nixed by her.</p>
<p>paying3tuitions…she “always wanted to get married in a church” but i guess was “settling” and was going to get married at a reception hall, so I am not sure how holy the mass would be. I was thinking in my mind that at a hall a reform rabbi would be able to perform it - she will probably have more of a challenge in getting the Catholic priest perform outside of a church with a rabbi, but she will probably go along with anything just to marry this guy. LOVE the idea of: the festive party celebrates what just happened at the “20 minute ceremony.” So well put</p>
<p>Levirm - She is 21 and living with the fiance, and a roomate in an appt. . She works and is self supporting. Yes it certainly seems like a delayed rebellion. She was really a pretty easy kid. She transferred from Albany - put in the paperwork the first month she was there to Stony Brook to be with him at home- lived home for about 15 mos then moved in within him without even telling us! Blew off her twin brothers bnai mitzvah the following month. (probably the MOST painful thing up until now.
)</p>
<p>His parents are very young - which initially was attractive to my daughter. She had him her sr year of high school… I have spoken with his mom once, about 2 years ago, to ask her to not make it so easy for her to stay there - that we were having problems but if she is not here we can’t work them out. She told me that my dd said she was locked out. Told her this was a lie, etc…So she said that if shes not locked out she will not let her stay again. …all BS…then she moved in. She is loved by them - for good reason…he’s a nothing. And what he used to date was very different. She doesnt love his parents anymore after living with them can spout many negatives. She sees many differences. But he has a 6 yo sister -mshe always wanted one and unfortunately she got 3 brothers…that she loves to play house with :). She lived with them about 15 mos until they told them to move out - which was about 5 mos ago.</p>
<p>Oh and its the christian holidays she likes better…tho she claims she likes going church with him but not sure if that was just said to stab me again 
OY GEVALT</p>
<p>Let me start by saying that although I’m Catholic I do understand why you want your kids to marry within your faith. I certainly hope my son retains his Catholic identity and marries a nice Catholic girl. </p>
<p>I just thought I would add something about the Catholic marriage rite. It is a sacrament to us, as is Communion. No one (well except for Eastern Orthodox followers and a few others), not even Protestants, are allowed to take Communion so the chance of their being a Mass during the wedding ceremony is slim. Therefore, it shouldn’t take long. Also, gerbilmom’s daughter would have to meet with the priest and go through pre-marital counseling prior to the ceremony and if she chooses to convert she will have to take classes. As far as being uncomfortable while others are kneeling–don’t be if you are ever in this situation. No one will think twice about it. We realize not everyone is physically able or comfortable for other reasons doing so. Also, one last thing—as a general rule Catholic priests will not perform ceremonies outside–it is preferred that it occur in a Church as it is a sacrament.</p>
<p>Even though I respect Judaism, I’m not sure what I would do if my son wanted to married a nice Jewish girl. I guess I would try to be as supportive as I could be and I’d try to learn as much as I could about my future daughter-in-laws traditions since I would guess my grandkids would be Jewish.</p>
<p>Elon</p>
<p>Well theres not much to say about our Elon visit that others here havent reported in the past. To me it looked much like many other small red brick campuses, but D thought it was beautiful. She liked the school and all the people she met very much and would like very much to attend there. Nancy Luberoff was unable to meet with us on MLK Day but she did set up a meeting with a lovely and helpful freshman girl who we had lunch with and who answered a number of questions not covered by the info session or tour.</p>
<p>Elon seems to have found a niche to differentiate itself in the higher education heavy corridor of North Carolina and is doing its best to mine and expand it. Everything about the place feels well thought out well kept up and forward looking. The engaged learning and service learning aspects really appealed to my D, as did the schools commitment to and everyones attitude toward diversity and cooperation. About the only negative for my D was that after the presentation, she was even more confused as to why she was deferred. She is comfortably within the GPA and ACT standards of the school, and has excellent leadership and service credentials. </p>
<p>I liked the school too, but have a few qualms. Burlington is one long strip mall with every big box store and fast food joint youve ver heard of. I would miss there being a small town to walk into with local quaint places where kids can eat or shop. And despite the engaged learning concept, I wonder about internships and post- graduation employment for the average student who doesnt go on to a higher degree. Elon is still a regional school and doesnt have the national name recognition or alumni base to make for broad scale post-graduation employment prospects. (56 percent of alumni are younger than 40). In the local area there will be lots of competition with other better known, longer extant schools and outside of the area, many people I think will still not recognize the name or maybe even think its some small, local or even evangelical school.</p>
<p>It’s possible my massive head cold, sore throat and cough kept me from appreciating Elon more. But D liked it so much, and the people were so engaging, it wouldnt prevent me from letting her attend or attempting to dissuade her if shes accepted.</p>
<p>p.s.- the cold meant that D had to drive most of the way from Elon to JMU. I have mixed emotions in reporting that she’s a better, safer driver than I am,</p>
<p>wow…I need that cosmo just from reading this thread today…can’t even attempt to address all of this, but my heart goes out to gerbilmom who has been kind enough to join us…</p>
<p>levirm: let’s keep football talk away from our sacred thread this week…lol</p>
<p>RVM: I guess that attending or not attending would also send a message to the boys…have you considered that as well?</p>
<p>As I mentioned earlier, both girls have only had non-Jewish boyfriends…both are single as of now…I’m sure they wouldn’t mind if they were to meet guys who were interested in them AND were Jewish AND were nice…just hasn’t happened…</p>
<p>When I was growing up on LI in the 70’s (hi gerbilmom!), I was very involved with BBG as well…I dated mostly Jewish guys because my HS was like, 65% Jewish (seriously)…I didn’t date a non-Jewish man until after college and it was only a couple of times (no particular reason)…my parents NEVER told me who to date; but they subtlely told me stories of people they knew who were “sitting shiva” for their children and how they did not agree with that…I have no idea how I ended up marrying a Jewish man other than it was probably somewhere in my psyche that I would end up with one…</p>
<p>mhc: I was posting while you were as well…sorry if we crossed</p>
<p>Thank you for correcting me, paying3!
Yes, I see that when someone converts, they are then Jewish! However, since they did not grow up Jewish…it’s hard for me to think of them this way…I guess I’d better open myself up to the possibility since you never know what will happen with my boys!</p>
<p>Up until now, it’s just been me, my H and our two boys…however once they go to college, it certainly opens things up a bit and welcoming non-Jewish girls will certainly be tricky. OMG, hard to keep one’s mouth shut, especially mine! :)</p>
<p>Hope everyone on this thread will help me out with that situation if it should happen! I would absolutely welcome a girl who decides to convert to Judiasm, but that is also a difficult situation since they don’t have the foundation from the beginning. It doesn’t mean that it won’t be a successful marriage…</p>
<p>At this point I’m just speculating. One day at a time. Right now, he’ll graduate this Spring, start college, meet all kinds of interesting girls and guys…and hopefully sign up for a birthright trip! :)</p>
<p>Gerbilmom: I’m sorry to hear about your situation, how difficult! I’m a little confused about your post. As Levirm said it sounds like there are some real issues beyond the mixed faith wedding. Did she ditch college this past year as a senior or did she leave school earlier. Has this wedding just evolved quickly over several months or was it over a period of years. Do the kids have jobs and a way to support themselves? </p>
<p>It sounds like things are moving very fast and sometimes when things move quickly they fizzle out quickly too. You can only hope. The one good thing about planning a Catholic wedding is that I seem to remember that the church spends some time with classes that involve some soul searching to prepare for marriage. Perhaps if this is the case your daughter will have a chance to look inside herself and see why she is making these decisions. </p>
<p>Perhaps I’m reading too much between the lines but it sounds like with the concern about having the wedding funded and the limited education that money is an issue for these kids. A nice wedding usually equals nice gifts which gives them an opportunity to delay seeing reality for a little while. You didn’t say much about it but there seem to be some real issues about how these kids will live that are separate from the religious questions.</p>
<p>It is important for kids to understand that the funded wedding isn’t a birthrite. It is a family celebration and you need to have a part in it to feel that you are celebrating. You shouldn’t just be the banker.</p>
<p>It seems that counseling would be helpful either through the temple, Jewish family service or independently. Quitting school, giving up ones faith/culture and getting married are some big changes to deal with all at one time. It sounds like somehow some soul searching is needed. Not just for your relationship with your daughter but for a successful marriage and for her well being.</p>
<p>I wish you the best of luck.</p>
<p>mhc - you do thorough reports - thank you! I do understand your points about the young alumni base and lack of national name recognition - but I think both of those are improving every year. Did your D ask her regional rep WHY she was deferred? It could simply be too many white girls from NY - sounds like she has everything else in place. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on JMU.</p>
<p>On the wedding issue - one of my male first cousins married an Indian girl 10 years ago. they had a beautiful dual ceremony - a Jewish ceremony performed by a reform Rabbi first - followed by a Hindu ceremony. It was quite lovely - held in a hotel - not a Temple or church. It honored and respected both religions. I guess if there is going to be an interfaith marriage - I would at least like to see integration of both faiths. Seeing a young Jewish person marrying in a church service just bothers/disappoints me immensely.</p>
<p>mhc: how did she like JMU? or are you there now?</p>
<p>I’ve read this thread off-and-on for the past, oh, 300+ pages but have generally refrained from participating. Over the past day or two I’ve struggled with what to think/write about the topic of late, so I decided I’d jump in. I have generally stayed away from writing (I’ve worked professionally in admissions for several years which is my link to this board - I like to be helpful) because I don’t (yet!) have any children. However I think my perspective is still valuable to this discussion.</p>
<p>I was raised with a notable absence of religion in any form in my family - almost as a point of pride to reject “dogma.” My father’s last religious experience was a minyan held in his Morningside Heights apartment back in the 70s. I don’t know if my Episcopal-raised mother has been to a church service, minus the occasional wedding or funeral for a friend, since dragged by her family in the late 60s. My siblings and I never went to religious observances growing up. Santa Claus “visited” us and we had a “Christmas” tree and we celebrated Hanukkah with my parents’ closest family friends but my knowledge of any religion was essentially nil. I knew I liked presents, Easter egg hunts, latkes, and Purim carnivals and that was about it. A friend in high school made a passing comment about “the most holy holiday in the Christian church” and I made a joke about Christmas (oops, apparently it is Easter, all of us non-Christians out there). I, fundamentally, did not consider myself Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, or any religion, nor was I ever formally “indoctrinated” into one either by ceremony or birth (my mom is not Jewish).</p>
<p>Flash forward several years. The love of my life, my partner, was raised in a decidedly different environment. Her family is very Conservative, bordering on MO. She grew up in a kosher household, where she and her siblings were expected to go to Hebrew school and temple youth programs several times a week; her parents were – and still are – very involved in temple leadership, celebrate all major and even minor holidays, go to synagogue each week (you get it). She went to Jewish day school. She went to Jewish summer camp. Her parents’ friends are uniformly very Conservative or MO Jews - as were my partner’s (until college, and still even then!). She became bat mitzvah. She grew up being told she would one day marry a nice Jewish boy, have several kids, and wash/rinse/repeat aforementioned life. You get the point. </p>
<p>Unfortunately (fortunately? :)) things don’t always work out that way. When she met me, I think the biggest problem her parents had with our relationship was not that we’re two women in love (certainly that was and remains/is a huge major issue - but I won’t digress on that topic right now), but that I wasn’t a “committed Jew” and that if we had any children one day, we would then certainly not raise them Jewish as a result. Nevermind that I had been meeting with a rabbi privately for a while (at the point at which we met, not as a consequence of) to talk about general ideas of faith and self, nevermind that I was and am planning to raise my hypothetical children in the Jewish faith – my partner’s parents just saw “NOT JEWISH” blinking over my forehead.</p>
<p>I get it. I understand their concern and worry – the collective anxiety about the future of Jewish life, culture, and community being diluted out with intermarried inroads of Christmas trees and bacon cheeseburgers and small children named Hannah Steinberg ending up somehow vaguely Methodist or something (not to pick on my friend Hannah, who is decidedly Jewish, and appreciably has one of most archetypal Jewish names :)). The haunting legacy of the Shoah and the reality that the targeted annihilation of Jews is not only a possibility, it is known to history.</p>
<p>However, the life my partner and I lead is very Jewish (minus the whole “we’re gay” bit if any of you are Ortho or something – guess we’d diverge there). Our religiosity completes each other. She remembers when to light yahzreit candles and I drag us to synagogue for holidays (we did have to compromise on that of course – I like more reform services b/c I never studied Hebrew as a child, she’s fluent and likes the rhythms of her childhood). We don’t keep a kosher kitchen (we have only one sink and one oven) but all of our meat comes from the local kosher butcher and we don’t mix dairy and meat. I break out the Shabbos candles on occasion. We fast on Yom Kippur and will have a big Passover Seder for friends this year. I make brisket and tzimmes and she makes matzah ball soup and kugel. A mezuzah guards the entryway to our home.</p>
<p>Judaism is an important part of our relationship. But it is a part of our relationship because WE want it to be. Not because either of us was told we had to. We made that choice independent of either of our parents - and consciously so - and will raise our future children in this religion as a matter of our choice as well. I have friends who have married fellow Jews and who are wholly unpracticing in any aspect (one told me she and her husband, both Jewish, felt “uncomfortable at times” at our annual Hanukkah party this year because of the “level of religious reference.”). What I’m trying to get at is this: your son or daughter could marry another Jew and not be a practicing Jew in any respect nor raise your potential grandchildren in any manner reflective of Jewish life. Or, your child could marry a non-Jewish person, or a non-practicing Jew, and end up living a particularly rich (Jewish) religious life and raise your grandchildren that way.</p>
<p>I think what’s most important is that people date, marry, and mate with people who complement their own religious practices and beliefs. I think the question you need to concern yourselves with is more - “How do I raise a Jewish child who is confident, secure, and values his/her own Jewishness – so that they will want a partner who embraces this too? Regardless of whether this partner is Jewish or not.” </p>
<p>Of course I don’t have any children - so who knows what I’ll think about this when/if in 25 years. And I get (trust me!) that if any of you have sons, and have an Ortho perspective/interpretation on conversion, you may worry about your future grandchildren and their status, especially in Israel if they want to get married there. Just some thoughts.</p>
<p>These are tough questions.</p>
<p>I was raised in a family in which, at least on the maternal side, Judaism was an major (if not the central) part of life. Synagogue observance at least once a week, brachot every Friday night. Lots of holidays. Three days a week of Hebrew School. Kosher home. Jewish camps (though my brother and I bailed on these). USY (I bailed on this too). All holidays with relatives who were principal of Conservative Hebrew Day School, professional Jews, yeshiva-trained uncles, etc. Lots of singing. My mother has been a major player in organized Conservative Judaism. I’m the black sheep of the family in that I chose to do none of these after going to college (and dropped a number in high school). Just didn’t work for me (though I love the singing and melody #3 to a prayer or song still pops out of the jukebox whenever the button is pressed). </p>
<p>My brother was going out seriously with a very nice Hispanic woman many years ago and my mother made her disapproval exceedingly clear (she was/is good at that). He dropped her at one point and never married. He’s a sweet guy who never really got his life together and it is likely that a wife would really have helped. A few years ago, my mother said that one of her greatest regrets in life was that she discouraged my brother from marrying the Hispanic woman. She said that while it was important to her that her kids marry Jewish spouses, it was even more important to her that her kids were happy and if she had to do it again, she would have endorsed the relationship. </p>
<p>I would not make the same mistake. ShawSon does not feeling strongly Jewish, while ShawD does. While I would counsel them that marriage would be easier with a spouse with the same religious upbringing, the girls ShawSon is friends with who are not gay are virtually all Asian. He’s not going out with any as far as I can tell, but I know one girl from China asked him if he would give her driving lessons – she’d only learned to drive a manual transmission and she wondered if he would give her lessons on an automatic transmission. He tried to explain that she didn’t need lessons for an automatic, but I think she prevailed. My guess is he’ll discover one day that he’s in a relationship with one of these girls without fully realizing what happened. (We males are often pretty socially dense). Then who knows. My biggest concern is for his happiness.</p>
<p>mhc -Thanks so much for sharing your impressions of Miami and Elon. Both of those schools are on my son’s list for next year. I really appreciate that you took the time to post.</p>
<p>I definitely need a cosmo just to keep up with this thread.</p>
<p>Germilmom: You have my sympathy. It sounds like your daughter has disapointed you on many fronts. I think that you are being very reasonable about the wedding. This couple seems very young for marriage. I have no ideal how I would handle a situation like this. </p>
<p>Justmytwocents: Welcome and thanks for sharing your story. You make very good points. </p>
<p>Levrim: I know that Rodney suggested that we stay away from football talk, but your daughter might want to rethink her plan about bringing that jersey to Baltimore. (JK) </p>
<p>My daughter just rode off with her bad boy, non-Jewish on again off again boyfriend. Oi Vey.</p>
<p>justmytwocents - Thanks for your post. It sounds like you and your partner have created a beautiful Jewish home together. I think what a lot of us have been trying to say (and you did it beautifully), is that while we were told we HAD to marry Jewish, most of us want our kids to WANT to marry Jewish. Not out of guilt, but because they want to.</p>
<p>spectrum2 - The way I wrote it may have made it sound like it happened quickly but this has been unfolding for roughly 3 1/2 years. They started dating May of senior year. They got engaged…the first time… when she left for college. That ended in December of that year. They reunited 6 months later and more or less have been together since then. They got engaged Nov 2009. Nothing was discussed for a while re a wedding and when it was brought up I told her when they move out of his parents house on their own i would discuss it. That happened in September. SHe brought up the wedding in Nov. She stopped going to school at the end of this past spring semester - i believe. She said she had to take 2 classes this summer and she would be done -graduating early. After making up stories of registration errors… she let slip that her loan had to start being repaid since it was 6mos after not matriculating. </p>
<p>Her identity is too tied up with him. She has always been a follower - though luckily not on the drugs or drinking fronts. My one regret with her is not getting her counseling when she was younger. She has her issues for sure - she pulls the woe is me …'child of divorce" card and “i lost all the attention when my brothers were born”…etc. Not saying that this does not affect her but no more or less than other kids who had the bad timing of being born first. When I did take her for counseling, when she came home from school, she wasted her time and my $ lying to the therapist - and building up the boyfriend. </p>
<p>Rodney - wonder if we were at any conventions together way back when </p>
<p>She has put the wedding plans on hold for now, I am guessing so they can save up for it. It will take them a LONG time since money burns a hole in his pocket - has to have all the newest games, immediately etc…she used to be the saver but not lately…so that helps too! I always hoped she would get a job in the city - working with professionals - and that would open her eyes a bit…but my hopes are waning now since she didnt finish school hope she decides to go back…</p>
<p>We’ll see!</p>
<p>Again, thanks everyone!</p>
<p>Just my2cents–What a wonderful post. Thank you so much for sharing. I personally don’t care about keeping Kosher, Shomre Shabbos, and the rest of it. I do care about raising decent children with moral backbones and their meeting and marrying like minded people. Still, I can’t help but feel “Jewish.”
Shawbridge-I admire your mom for having the courage to change a value that she certainly held dear for a very long time. That must have been a difficult admission for her to make.</p>