Colleges for the Jewish "B" student (Part 1)

Parents Forum
5001

<p>I grew up on the west coast with the message that marrying within the faith was much preferred but I believe that my mother, divorced and in an unhappy second marriage, felt she hadn’t been a great role model and that she could only suggest…turns out that, since BBYO was such a big part of my high school life, I only dated AZA guys. In college I dated both, believing that it would be preferable to marry a Jew but not mandatory. Turns out I did end up marrying a Jew although dh is pretty unobservant, considering himself much more of a cultural Jew rather than an observant one. </p>

<p>My brothers married non-jews and, for the most part, have raised their children without any particular faith. The worst for me was when DB asked if I’d be godmother to my new nephew. I asked what was involved and db, who was just following his wife’s wishes, said it really didn’t mean anything. Naively, I agreed and we flew to their hometown to participate in a…what?..a baptism at a church. I was assured that my role was all was in name only. During the ceremony I was called up, handed the baby and the pastor asked me to agree, as godmother, to be responsible for insuring the religious upbringing of my nephew. I looked at the pastor, the crosses, the congregation and just about lost it. You can only imagine what I said to my brother after that. I did tell both db and his wife that I couldn’t be the godmother as the only religion I would be sharing would be judiasm. SIL said they weren’t raising the kids any religion and that the baptism was “just in case”. The whole thing was just crazy – it took a very, very long time to forgive my brother.</p>

5002

<p>So… I log on and peruse this thread for college info and stumble across this lively and interesting discussion. At the risk of “attending a party I wasn’t invited to” - I will add my non-Jewish experience which you may or may not find interesting.</p>

<p>First of all, I completely understand why Jewish parents want their children to marry within their own religion. We have lots of Jewish friends, neighbors and even family members so we have had this discussion many times over with them.</p>

<p>About the sons - We have a living example in our family of this issue. My sister in law married a Jewish man (been married 30+yrs) and they have 4 children, mostly grown -youngest is 19. Sadly, the kids have been brought up completely without any religion. We (H and I) had always hoped they would be brought up Jewish but I guess they decided on nothing. I always felt bad for his mother - knowing full well how upset this made her. Conversely, my brother in law’s 2 sisters, married Jewish men and raised their children Jewish. </p>

<p>Godparent issue - interestingly, we are “godparents” to the son of our Jewish friends. It didn’t seem to be an issue. As I understood it, it is more of an honor and NOT about the child’s religious education - a job for the parents and the Jewish community(? is that correct?). We were present for the bris and I think (it was 21 yrs ago) that my H held him for the ceremony. The reverse (Jewish godparent to Christian child) is completely different. I believe most, if not all, Christian faiths believe the role of godparent is about religious education. I can’t imagine why someone would put a Jewish family member in that awkward situation.</p>

<p>On a lighter note - my 2 sons find Jewish girls quite lovely - they always say they are going to marry a nice Jewish girl rather than a nice Catholic girl. Don’t worry - we have warned them that their potential in-laws wouldn’t be happy about that so perhaps that will deter them!!</p>

1 Like
5003

<p>On the topic of that inexplicable connectedness to other Jews, I found this blog post to be very interesting. It’s about fascination with Jewish celebrities…and it’s BY a Jewish celebrity (of sorts…she’s a TV actress you’ve probably heard of). I thought she explained it well.</p>

<p>[Raising</a> Kvell | Blog | Black Swan, Jewish Spawn](<a href=“http://www.kveller.com/blog/parenting/black-swan-jewish-spawn/]Raising”>http://www.kveller.com/blog/parenting/black-swan-jewish-spawn/)</p>

<p>Nice to see someone else try to explain that, “Sue me, I like Jews” thing I have going on.</p>

5004

<p>

</p>

<p>It’s 5 o’clock somewhere! :)</p>

<p>Just to add a few tidbits:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>I was disowned for a couple of years. Very painful. Long story (very) short: my DH converted - talked about doing this early on (and served on our temple board), our kids are the only Jewish grandkids (and they are “very” Jewish!). My brother’s kids have no religion; very sad. My sister and her DH - they only have pets, but my sister hardly even observes Jewish holidays (and no temple).</p></li>
<li><p>So much more plays into it than what your parents’ message is. In hindsight, my parents did what they thought would lead us to marry Jews - parts of the puzzle were missing (IMO), but they did their best. Of course they were right - marrying someone of the same faith is easier (but the grass is not always greener…).</p></li>
<li><p>URJ says that there are three ways that parents can help ensure Jewish future for their kids (take with a grain of salt since URJ is in the camp and Israel business): attend Jewish day school, attend Jewish camp, peer trip to Israel. My kids will have two out of three and have established strong Jewish identity and strong Jewish friendships. I try to encourage this by driving all over the northeast so they can visit camp friends (yay for Skype and ichat) and I also drive my DS to a youth group half-hour away on Monday nights AFTER confirmation class at our temple (our temple doesn’t really have a youth group; his camp friends are in the other youth group). </p></li>
</ul>

<p>I’m pretty sure that marrying a Jew is important to my kids, but you never know who they will meet. I can’t even comment on the other thread - Jews attending Catholic schools - because it’s just not in our realm of possibility and I don’t want to come off too strong. At the moment, DD seems more interested in the boys who work at her URJ camp than those at college – although she is hoping to join the Jewish sorority at school next semester (yes, she is still home, that long UD winter break…) and, again, you never know what social opportunities will present themselves at that time.</p>

<p>Just the connection that we all feel on this thread underscores common values, traditions, hopes.</p>

5005

<p>This is a very intresting discussion. Collage1, I can’t even imagine how you felt at that baptism.</p>

<p>RVM: I would probably go to the wedding despite my disaproval. </p>

<p>Many years ago, my sister-in-law seriously dated a non-Jew. Her father highly disaproved and she broke off the relationship. After a few unhappy years apart, the couple got back together and decided to marry. My very rigid father-in-law wasn’t happy, but he did accept the marriage. They had a Jewish ceremony and agreed to raise their children Jewish. My brother-in-law is the biggest mensch I know. He drove his children to Hebrew school and celebrates the Jewish holidays. One year he flew to Florida to drive my in-laws home when they couldn’t handle the drive.</p>

5006

<p>Another perspective… My closest friend who is Jewish by birth, grew up with virtually no religion at all. After she married, she and her husband became observant Jews. Today they are Orthodox, with their children attending a Yeshiva. We are probably their only non-orthodox friends, and over the years, our children have gotten to know eachother as well. However, when my sons had their Bar Mitzvahs, they decilined the invitations. It was a situation where they could have walked to temple or at least attended the celebrations which were both held at hotels. They made excuses, but clearly they don’t agree with our religious beliefs and didn’t want their children exposed to it. This was very hurtful. </p>

<p>So, RVM - I say go to the wedding. It’s really not up to you to approve or disapprove of your cousins’ decisions. You would be attending because you love and accept them for who they are, even if their choices are not your cup of tea.</p>

<p>We have clearly raised our sons in the Jewish faith (our definition). We are active in our temple, observe the holidays, sons have attended years of Hebrew school, and many years of a wonderful Jewish camp. However, today they both say while they do consider themselves Jewish, they feel that this is a cultural rather than a religious affiliation. In fact, older S says he’s an atheist. It hurts, but I really feel that if either of them marry Jewish women it will be by coincidence only (even with my preaching). I hope that as they mature, they will begin to feel differently, but if not, I will love them just the same. I do hope that they pass on our traditions to the next generation.</p>

1 Like
5007

<p>I know I’ve chimed in already on this, but it’s gotten so lively that I just need to add some more!</p>

<p>I can’t imagine not sharing seder with grandchildren or partying at Purim with them (this is obviously a long way off). But if one of my children were to marry a non-Jew I would definitely accept it with as much grace as possible. I think it would be pretty obvious that this would be a HUGE disappointment, but how could I possibly disown a child?</p>

<p>As with LINYMOM, I can’t even speculate about Catholic colleges for my kids; it’s just not a consideration. When a guidance counselor mentioned Georgetown (which has a Hillel, no less) my son dismissed it entirely. I felt good about that. Does it predict the future? Of course not, but at least it gives me hope that I’ve given them a foundation upon which to build.</p>

<p>Different families make different choices and I try not to judge, but I’ve seen all kinds of observance: from mixed marriages where the children keep kosher to all-Jewish families where bacon-wrapped shrimp is served at Jewish celebrations. How do we determine what’s right? Ultimately, I think we have to adopt a big-tent philosophy if we are to remain distinct as a culture.</p>

5008

<p>also, a cocktail party is definitely in order!</p>

5009

<p>Pass the cosmos! </p>

<p>I have really enjoyed reading the responses on this thread. It does seem like a lot of families have dealt with intermarriage in one way or another. I am always happy to hear that the kids are being raised Jewish! </p>

<p>Rockvillemom - my FIL has refused to attend any mixed marriage ceremony. It has created many hard feelings within the family and in their circle of friends. Your sons know how you feel. I would say go unless you are willing to deal with the very real possibility of a breach that won’t be healed.</p>

5010

<p>Thanks for your comments - I guess we will be going. Sigh.</p>

5011

<p>DeskPotato’s post about Jewish celebrities reminded me of something that happened a couple of years ago. My mother-in-law gave me a book entitled “Stars of David: Prominent Jews Talk about Being Jewish” or something similar. The book has little essays, written by entertainers and media celebrities and a couple of judges or politicians - very light on the scientists - about their Jewish identities.</p>

<p>My mother-in-law told me that one of her book groups had read the book, and then had discussed their own personal experiences with their families. She told me this with tears in her eyes: Of all of these Jewish grandmothers in the group who are now in their 80s, she was the only one with Jewish grandchildren (she did not at the time realize that her granddaughter, my niece, was in the process of becoming Christian). She told me that she gives me all the credit for what I did with my kids. She explained to the group how her son married me, and how I convinced him to keep a kosher home (an idea that I am not sure she totally embraced at the time), to require their attendance at Shabbat dinners where we do the blessings (I allow them to go out afterward if they want), to send the four kids to a Jewish day school, to send them to Jewish camp, to have them go on peer trips to Israel, to even be the only kids at Federation or JNF phone banking sessions, and how she so appreciated me doing all of this because the kids truly identify. I just always felt that I needed to do as much as I could to support their identity - and if this meant financial sacrifice or minor inconvenience, I would still do it. I am lucky because I live in such a supportive Jewish community. I expect that the kids will take this level of observance down a notch (except for my oldest daughter, who has taken it up a notch!) - but that is OK. I remember going to a relative’s Bar Mitzvah that was very New Age-like with guitars and such as part of the service, and whispering to my sons - “If your kids have a Bar or Bat Mitzvah like this, that is OK - as long as they have a Bar or Bat Mitzvah.” We never put anyone down for not doing some of the things we did - and we enjoyed the services from all of the “streams” when we went to Bar and Bat Mitzvahs of our relatives and friends.</p>

<p>I would say right now that my child #3 is most at risk, even though he goes to a college with a lot of Jewish students. The others have only dated Jews, but he has only dated non-Jews. I keep reminding him that it is important to me that he marry someone Jewish, and that I hope it is important to him, and he agrees. But then he goes out and dates non-Jews, insisting that it is “not serious” (I can tell, though, that there is a girl that has some sort of master plan operating.) I have to accept that there is only so much that I can do at this point, and I need to maintain my relationship with him, but I still want to make my position clear. I see, though, how “socialized” he is getting in college, how he starts to regard things as “normal” because this is his surrounding culture. If anyone has techniques that they use to get the message across to their kids, please let me know!</p>

<p>I had to laugh when I saw one of the essays that my youngest daughter wrote for one of her college applications. The prompt asked for what things - tangible and intangible - she would bring to college. After writing and explaining a lot of intangible things (creativity, sense of humor, etc.), she said that she would bring her Star of David necklace to constantly remind her of where she came from, and her Steelers jersey for largely the same reason. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>Collage1, thanks for sharing that story. I, too, can’t even imagine how that must have been. I can just picture my niece doing this to one of my kids, though!</p>

5012

<p>Oh - and I am so uninformed that I had to look up what a Cosmopolitan is - but yeah, I’m in!</p>

5013

<p>College1: I can’t imagine how uncomfortable that would have been. It was disrespectful of who you are. I think I am usually quite liberal but that does cross the line.</p>

<p>Conversely when our first child was born we did not have a family member or even another Jewish friend who we thought we would be comforable asking to step to be our child’s guardian if the worst happened. We had some dear Irish Catholic friends who we ended up asking and they in a way became my S’s god parents. One of the most beautiful and loving things they did was to tell us they were learning about Judiasm because they wanted to be able to rise to the reseponsibility. I had not at the time thought through the religious aspects of the request. I felt blessed to have such wonderful sensitive friends.</p>

<p>Cosmos sound great as long as I don’t have to drive!</p>

5014

<p>2 relevant things happened in our household yesterday w/ S1. First, I was watching my recording of House from Mon, when (if you watch this you’ll remember the scene) Cuddy’s mom asked House if he would convert if they got married. He looked at her and said “I’m an athiest”. She replied “That’s ok, half the jews I know are athiests, it’s all about community” I yelled for my S1 to come into the room and replayed it for him. We both laughed because much to my chagrin, he has told me that he doesn’t believe in G-d and I’ve already replied that he’s still jewish, and should embrace it for the community and history if nothing else. </p>

<p>Also, we’re a little behind, but I had forwarded the article about asian mothers to my boys yesterday, expressing my forgiveness for not being tougher on them. S1 came to my room saying he thought what the mom had to say was great, and that he’ll have to marry an asian woman who will raise his children that way. My response was “as long as she’s jewish”</p>

5015

<p>Loved Candice Bergen as the Jewish mom. Priceless.</p>

5016

<p>I am so ready for and in need of a cosmo :slight_smile: </p>

<p>A friend of mine directed me to this thread and I am so glad that she did - in the misery loves company sort of way.</p>

<p>I will discuss my DD’s incredulous behavior but I need to give you some background.</p>

<p>Growing up on LI in the 70s I lived in a somewhat Jewish neighborhood. I was active in BBYO, USY, went to Israel for my 16th summer, and friendly with mostly Jewish kids. My parents were totally of the mindset Jewish only for dating. I remember being in 6th grade and getting a hard time about going to the library with a non jewish boy to work on a project. My grandmother actually told me a whole story about my mom, at that point, how she fell for some Non Jewish piano player but had to end it because you just cannot do that. My answer was basically, grandma, I just have a project to work on! LOL. </p>

<p>Anyway, under the heading of that which is forbidden is that much more appealing…I did “dabble with” the occasional non jewish boy but seriously dated Jewish boys exclusively through college. Rebounding from a long term relationship that broke up I met a non jewish boy who was also a “bad boy” - that much more appealing. I wound up marrying him, knowing I shouldnt. My dad and I didnt speak for about a year prior to this union - someone pushed him to accept it or lose me I guess and we reconciled 6 weeks before my wedding. He did tell me right before he walked me downt the aisle " you can turn around and not get married and just have the party" I wish I could say that I didnt consider it…I did but didnt have the courage…so married I got. I had a daughter 2years later and divorced 2 years after that…I did meet a wonderful Jewish guy next who I have been married to for 16years. as ana side - He is the father she never had in my ex. Seriously she has seen her real dad only 3 times in the past 8 years…her bat mitzvah, her HS graduation and her grandmothers memorial service which I brought her to. ). </p>

<p>OK Flashforward 15 years…My daughter who also was raised in a jewish home, celebrating all the holidays, shabbat at temple, was bat mitzvah’d, did the jewish camp thing for 9 summers started dating her first real boyfriend in May of her senior year of HS (2007). Needless to say, Not jewish. But since she is the product of a “mixed marriage” I never pushed that choice, hoping she would choose to marry Jewish. I never was fan of this guy - NOT ambitious or educated…but am trying to like him for my daughter…since they are still together and engaged. May I add, she ditched school with maybe a semester or less to go since he wasn’t a student and she didn’t feel like it anymore. Can I also add that had she not started dating him the month before she graduated, she would probably be graduating from college this may. Anyway, I digress…</p>

<p>November this past year she pushed the planning the wedding discussion. Within a week, they already had a place and a date.</p>

<p>We start talking about what we would give them $$$ and what his parents would kick in…
The honeymoon and the priest … she said…since they are more religious than you. I disputed this point and I said we would take care of the Rabbi. That part of the conversation ended. We talked $, they left. </p>

<p>The next day I see her and - just because I wanted to make sure there was no misunderstanding, I told her that there was ONE condition for us financing this wedding and that was that either they had a Rabbi with the Priest OR a justice of the peace. </p>

<p>VERY long story short, I was told by my darling daughter that she does not feel connected to her Judaism. That she always wanted to be married in a church (that one hurt) and that its their ceremony and that they were going to raise the kids catholic (ouch there too). She was then advised by my husband and I that she can tell us when and where to show up but that they will be paying for their own wedding if this is there is only a priest. She actually said to me: “well its only 20 mins of the day and we will pay for the ceremony - so why won’t you pay for the party?” Seriously? She just doesnt get it. </p>

<p>I think we all have that line in the sand that we just CAN’T and WILL NOT cross and this is mine. "To quote Fiddler on the Roof - “if I bend anymore I will break…” </p>

<p>Judaism goes to the core of who I am. I am NOT religious, not kosher but I love being a cultural, spiritual Jew. The music just fills me. I know she doesn’t feel this way and I am not asking her to . I just feel that her family should be represented /respected. </p>

<p>Ok, I’ll get the next round! :)</p>

5017

<p>Funny Umich! I watched the House episode too and texted that dialogue to my “atheist” S who is back at school. Actually, S says that he does embrace the traditions and the history, so that does help me accept this a bit. Still hoping for a turnaround though!</p>

5018

<p>Clearly we should be doing some Jewish match-making on this thread! Bottoms up!</p>

5019

<p>Gerbilmom- While it is necessary to respect our children’s choices in life, it is also necessary that they respect us. If your Jewishness is such an integral part of who you are and you tried to imbue your d with the same feeling, then she must respect that. You aren’t telling her she can’t marry the guy or that you won’t attend a wedding, only that you cannot pay for a priest to officiate. Clearly, a reasonable position. Would she consider a secular officiant?</p>

5020

<p>Gerbil, I am so glad that you found happiness in your own marriage but I am so sorry that you are going through this!
And, I am trying to figure out exactly what is going on here. How old is your daughter? Is she independent, working, self-supporting? Do you think that this is a case of delayed adolescent rebellion? Is it a “control issue”? Is she just being “taken in” by her fiance’s family and “love-bombed” by them? What exactly about Catholicism appeals to her?
And, how much about Catholicism does she know if she thinks that Catholic wedding ceremonies are only 20 minutes? Every one that I have been to has been an hour!
Can you talk to your rabbi about this? Who knows - maybe your rabbi has a relationship with that priest and could get him to stall this until more issues are resolved, as it sounds like there is some emotional upheaval surrounding this that may not be about the boy or the wedding.
Anyway, let me tell you what a friend did when her daughter met “the boyfriend from hell” as she described it, he was not ambitious or educated as you and she described it, the daughter dropped out of college, and went off to live with the boyfriend. Whenever my friend could, she did things with her daughter that she knew this boyfriend would not enjoy. They went to museums, the theater, etc., and every time they did something like this, my friend said, “Isn’t this nice to go to [museum, theater, whatever]? It’s so enjoyable to do things like this!” Eventually, it sank in and she broke up with the boy.
But, they did not have a wedding date! You have a much more impending situation here. Please keep us posted and virtual Cosmopolitans to you!</p>

1 Like