<p>To answer your question, the one message my mother sent me was that I needed to go a big school in a big city “to become worldly”, and that growing up I was “sheltered”. I don’t know what she meant by that, but the school choice for me was all wrong (she made the school choice for me). I would have been much better served in a small LAC. She tried to make the same decision for my children as well, lol. My father’s message to me was simply showing me love by sending mail weekly to me (usually had some cash in the envelope). He said nothing about what I needed to do, should not do, etc. He just listened to me.</p>
<p>Advice for my kids was to do well in school, try different clubs, set up a schedule to stay organized, and have fun.</p>
<p>re: Jewish Identity when launched: I attended a large, heavily Jewish HS in NY; then went on to attend a heavily Jewish SUNY school…my parents never mentioned anything about the world at large and being a minority…It hit me like a TON of bricks when I started working on Wall Street; anti-semitism, anti-New York accent, anti-you name it…</p>
<p>I do wish that someone had prepared me or that I could have gone to college in a more diverse environment…it didn’t really affect me in the long run, but it was shell shock back then as I remember…</p>
<p>My kids are being raised in a completely different environment altogether…they will each forge their own Jewish identity as they see fit…</p>
<p>But as I was reading the other thread, (Jewish students at Catholic Colleges), I have come to realize that those of us with daughters have a completely different experience than those with sons…my girls know that their children will be Jewish and will be raised that way because that’s “just the way it is” in the Jewish religion with matrilineal descendency (is that a word?)…we have communicated that we believe their lives will be more enriched and easier if they would marry within the religion, but they are not convinced…
with one junior in college and one senior in HS, neither of them have “attracted” members of the tribe or have met any Jewish young men who they “like”…they are both not convinced that they will even have the opportunity to date Jewish guys given their track record…they are not typical Jewish girls around here…</p>
<p>and this is not because they are in places where there aren’t any Jewish young men…yabeyabe is on the cruise, but he would know what I was talking about; it seems that most Jewish young men, here at least in our parts of NJ, are magnetically attracted to non-Jewish girls…</p>
<p>so our Jewish young women are either left not to date, or to date those who are attracted to them…</p>
<p>I just re-read this post and it sounds weird to me but maybe because I’m rambling…hope it makes sense…</p>
<p>edit: oh and remembering some of p3T’s posts and levirm’s on the other thread, my older daughter is at a university with a 30% Jewish population…yes, one would think that would increase her opportunity to meet Jewish guys but hasn’t worked for her (we have discussed this amongst ourselves; if anyone wants to hear her response, please PM me…I’m too embarassed to post)</p>
<p>My mother’s main goal for me and my sisters was to marry nice, Jewish boys. She used to tell us that “if you don’t date non-Jewish boys, you won’t marry one.” We did all marry NJB’s, but none of us found them in college.</p>
<p>My daughters know that I would prefer that they marry Jewish men, but I haven’t pushed it the way my mother did. My main goal is for their Jewish identities to be strong enough that they would observe the Jewish holidays and raise their children Jewish. </p>
<p>My older daughter’s school has a large (30%) Jewish population. One of the advantages of this is that she has many Jewish friends, and Jewish observances are part of her social life. She feels that she has actually become “more Jewish” in college. On the other hand, some of her friends at schools with fewer Jews have assimilated more.</p>
<p>Rodney, I understand what you’re saying about the dating issues. Maybe it’s a matter of maturity.</p>
<p>To answer levirm’s question about what message my parents gave me about my Jewish identity? In my parents opinion it WAS my identity. My mother and grandparents are holocaust survivors, I was raised with a lot of survivors guilt. I must marry Jewish, we can’t let Hitler win, etc. etc. My father was raised Orthodox. I went to college with a huge Jewish population and proceeded to date non-jews. Why? Because I was out of the house and could do what I wanted. The forbidden is always appealing! Anyway, I dated someone who wasn’t Jewish for a very long time. When we started talking about getting married, I realized I couldn’t raise my children as anything but Jews. We broke up. I then ONLY dated Jewish men. </p>
<p>Rodney - “it seems that most Jewish young men, here at least in our parts of NJ, are magnetically attracted to non-Jewish girls…” </p>
<p>I think the reason for that is two-fold. First it’s natural for kids to explore. This is different, in some cases forbidden. I may get flamed for this, but I have had non-Jewish friends tell me that they looked for Jewish men to date, because Jewish men treat their girlfriends/wives well and Jewish men are successful (you know…Dr. Lawyer, CPA).</p>
<p>I have told my girls that I want them to date Jewish boys. I haven’t put the survival of the Jewish people on their backs (the way my parents did), just told them it makes life easier. The decision on which synagogue to join and how often to go to services is a much easier discussion then which synagogue/church do we join, do we go to both services, etc. There are enough tough decisions in life, I think with a common ground it’s much easier.</p>
<p>I know what rodney’s talking about with the girl thing … I realized a while ago that I am relieved I have girls because I know they will consider their kids to be Jewish in identity, whoever the father is, and whatever they practice. My 2 brothers don’t give a second’s thought to being Jewish - I don’t even know if they personally relate to the Holocaust - and that saddens me. For whatever reason, because I am female or who knows what, my kids have “felt” Jewish and have come to their own personal way of living as a Jew.</p>
<p>They are both in relationships - D1 still dating her HS BF after 4 years of college; D2 a HS senior with a BF of several months. Neither one is Jewish. D1’s BF was raised Christian but is not religious at all, and he definitely would defer to her strong religious identity in raising kids (although I know his mom wouldn’t be too pleased). D2’s BF is very actively Catholic, but we are seeing the mythic Jewish/Catholic congruence between them, interestingly, and with his family. Also because he has a good religious education he knows a LOT about Judaism and the Old Testament. </p>
<p>My parents didn’t have any goals for me or my brothers (clearly). Sometimes I wish I’d married a Jewish man, but then I wonder if we’d have had conflicts about “how” to be Jewish. My privately Christian husband has been very supportive of my kids. And I do think sometimes it would be easier for my girls to have Jewish BFs, but for now I think they’re doing fine. That they are girls does make a difference, though.</p>
<p>As for the general “walking around” experience of being Jewish, I just always figured it was written all over me (I definitely “look” Jewish and had a noticeably Jewish maiden name). I’ve never lived where I was anywhere near a plurality, let alone a majority. I survived some pretty strong Evangelical Christian targeting in college. I’m the type that feels I will always be a Jew through heritage, so no one can either take that away nor stop it from perpetuating through my descendants.</p>
<p>^^great posts; totally agree…especially about the decisions…</p>
<p>both my kids have been good friends with kids in mixed marriages; they see how the compromises worked out…they don’t, however, see how they got to those compromises…</p>
<p>like I said, I do get concerned about this, but not as concerned as if I had boys…there are too many men in my husband’s family who married outside of Judaism that are gone from the religion as are their kids; very sad for us…</p>
<p>^^not in this family; one of the earlier generations changed the last name to a more generic “American” one…the branch doesn’t fall far from the tree as they say…</p>
<p>That’s exactly what my experience was like too. I spent my entire youth going to Camp Judaea and Tel Yehudah sleep away camps, was active in my shul, a leader in my Young Judaea chapter, went to High School in Israel…there was no denying my Jewishness. The big exception is my name, which is VERY not Jewish and has led to my being privy to conversations among folks who were unaware of my upbringing and subsequently made remarks about Jews (perhaps why I was so upset about Richie).
My parents never said much about dating Jewish guys and were pretty nonchalant when I went through my rebellious period of dating non-Jews. I guess they figured (rightly) that when I was ready to be serious, I would seek out someone who understood that aspect of my life.</p>
<p>Long time ago when dating post-college, I attended a workshop called “Why Jewish Men/Women Love/Hate each other.” Eye-opening. Pollling the audience of Jewish men and women, the characteristics of their “ideal mate” were listed against the characteristics of what they thought are the physical and personality attributes of a “typical Jewish man” or “typical Jewish woman.” Ideal mate (said the young men): Friendly, upbeat, thin… Typical Jewish woman: Picky, negative, zoftig… Same thing happened when the girls were polled; they “want” (ideal man) someone warm, kind, thoughtful, intelligent, tall… but find the “typical Jewish men” they meet: “self-centered, short, aggressive, insecure…” I find even today that Jewish young men and women dismiss someone newly met, as soon as they “sniff” out any of the Jewish stereotypes they most fear. Sad stuff. Boys and girls do this to each other.</p>
<p>My parents stressed that it was important to marry someone Jewish. There was also a strong preference to us dating Jewish. I can remember heated arguments with my mother on the issue, where I said the character of your mate should matter more. </p>
<p>Then one of my siblings died at a young age after a lengthy illness. The issue of our spouse’s religion became a non-issue after that. In some ways, it’s almost a moot point: all of my parents’ grandchildren are being raised as Jews. Some are from a mixed marriage with a non-Jewish mother (yay for Reform halacha on patrilineal descent!). Others are from a marriage of two Jewish parents. I tell my own children that I’d like to have any (hypothetical) grandchildren be raised as Jews, and that’s easier when both parents are Jewish. From my mouth to G_d’s ears! But it’s not my decision to make.</p>
<p>Interesting that this topic is raised today - when I have yet another twenty-something cousin (male) marrying a Catholic girl - wedding is in November and I assume it to be a church wedding. I have a huge problem with this - I really think it would be hypocritical of me to attend this wedding - I cannot do so joyfully. His younger brother married a born-again Christian girl 2 years ago - and what was supposed to be a marriage of “blended faiths” has very quickly become very Christian - they attend church every Sunday - baby in tow. </p>
<p>I do see a pattern where the females tend to direct the religious values of the couple - which worries me immensely as I have 2 sons. So, while I want to stand my ground and not attend this wedding - I can’t predict what position I will be in 5-10 years from now. If one of my sons decides to marry a non-Jew - am I going to boycott the wedding? My parents - my mother in particular - always threatened to disown me if I married a non-Jew. It was very upsetting. While I would be tremendously disappointed if one of my sons did so - I certainly would attend the wedding and try to make the best of the situation.</p>
<p>So - I have quite a while before the invitations come out - what do you think? Attend the wedding or stay home? I feel like attending the wedding when I disapprove is wrong - but I also want to support the parents of the groom - my husband’s first cousin.</p>
<p>RVM, my brother-in-law and his wife are observant Jews who struggled with this issue when one of their close friends married outside their faith. They didn’t attend the wedding, but made it a point to invite the couple to their home both before and afterwards to make it clear that they supported the people but not the decision. It was a stressful thing for them, and they took the courageous path of explaining directly why they would not be attending the ceremony. For them, it worked out, but I can certainly see the potential for disaster!</p>
<p>Thanks for the great and insightful posts, everyone, and keep them coming! This is such a great group!</p>
<p>Rockvillemom, I had to endure one of those weddings a few months ago, except that it was my niece who decided to convert to Christianity and to be very observant as a Christian. Her Christian husband would have followed anything she wanted. The whole thing is still very difficult for me. I did attend the wedding - relatives including my mother-in-law were afraid that I wouldn’t - but I made it very clear to my own kids that I was having a very tough time with this. Even in the church, I whispered, “You know how I feel about this.” (“Yeah mom, we know.”) And - I did not attend the shower, given by her only other aunt (this aunt is not Jewish).
Interestingly, everyone in the family tried to rationalize this in his or her own way. My sons thought that if she had not married this guy, she would have ended up with an abuser, and that if she had not become Christian, she would have been into things that are way worse. My oldest daughter said that she was not Jewish anyway because her mom had had a Reform conversion (I TOTALLY disagree with this, but it was my daughter’s rationalization.) My mother-in-law said, “She’s so happy.” My niece had experienced some terrible difficulties as a teenager, which worried my mother-in-law, so she views this as an improvement. My sister-in-law thinks that they are on a journey and may eventually end up Jewish. She was totally supportive in her “mother-of-the-bride” role. My husband says that our niece distanced herself from him a long time ago and he doesn’t even feel like he knows her. My brother-in-law says that at least they are out of the house (they had been living there for a while) and that the guy is smart and nice (which is true). And I - just don’t have anything to rationalize it with; it pains me. I wanted to have a talk with them before the wedding encouraging them to give Judaism a chance but I held -bit - my tongue in order to avoid conflict in the family. I also felt like blasting the minister who performed the ceremony - telling him that he was helping to accomplish what Hitler couldn’t - but of course held my tongue. To make matters worse, my niece asked one of my daughters to be a bridesmaid and the other to do a reading. I sometimes even find myself describing her as my husband’s niece - when we have always considered all of the nieces and nephews to be both of ours.
So, I know how difficult this is. I am just glad that my kids know very clearly how I feel about it.</p>
<p>I have so much to say on this topic; it really strikes a chord in me. I wrote several paragraphs but just deleted it all. Just can’t go into it all online. </p>
<p>I just want to say that I am so happy to read all of your opinions. I share many of them with you. If we ever meet, I would be glad to share over a cup of coffee or a cosmopolitan!</p>
<p>I too am enjoying this conversation immensely. And I’d love to continue it over a cosmo!</p>
<p>As a Jew-by-choice who converted long after we married and had kids, my DDs find it ironic that I, of all people, care about whether on not they marry someone Jewish. But I worked really hard to make a Jewish life for them, for all of us really (DH’s family is pretty much non-observant), and I would be very sad to see them marry non-Jews and raise non-Jewish kids.</p>
<p>Count me in for the cosmos! (Watching Sex and the City reruns this week - so very apropos!)</p>
<p>Seiclan - it’s the next generation that really bothers me. Knowing the one cousin takes his infant son to church every Sunday just kills me. It has already affected our relationship - I have no seen him or his family in months.</p>
<p>I feel like I am reliving the numerous conversations I heard back in the 70’s when my parents friends and my aunts and uncle all swore their kids would never marry a non Jew and if they did they would be disowned! Well, no one was ever disowned.</p>
<p>Wow what a day, interesting conversation. RVM, for me attending the wedding is like saying you are wishing this family member you love all the best. It isn’t the same as saying you believe they are making good decisions, just that you wish them a good life. At least that’s how I see it. I haven’t faced this in my own family, but with 2 boys who are tiny minority I recognize the possibility exists.</p>
<p>For me it was never an issue, there was never a non Jew whom I was interested in. But then where I grew up and went to school most of the people that I met were Jewish. I know without a doubt that S2 would be happier married to a Jew because he has so embraced the Jewish experience through his camp and NFTY experiences. Getting back to the topic of this thread, this is why finding a college with opportunities for Jewish life is so important for him even though I don’t really think he knows it. S1 is more of a puzzle. I know he deeply identifies himself as Jewish but he has a more secular approach to religion. For him learning about the holocaust really shook his faith in G-d. He still however chooses to miss classes and attend services on the high holy days so I am pleased with that. Both of my boys have always been identified by their Jewishness in school and they are both comfortable with that. </p>
<p>As for trying to or not to stand out. i don’t think I have conveyed either message consciously. Both kids, each in their own way are and were very well known in HS. For myself personally. I am not a numbers person. There are several committees that have been asked to volunteer to become treasurer of. I have always declined, mainly because it is a job I have no desire to do, but going one step further, since I have no confidence in my ability in this area, I have always felt that if I made an error it would somehow drag my Jewishness into things in a negative way and this has reinforced the vigor with which I have declined this position.</p>
But it’s not my decision to make.</p>