<p>I found a bunch of news stories about it (including a video of the father breaking down in tears) but think that news should be national so more learn from it. Funny about the goldfish, my son has said he won’t join a frat because he is a strict vegetarian and was concerned they might force him to eat a goldfish. I told him they don’t do things like that anymore, that its just in the movies… Guess I was wrong.</p>
<p>At the risk of sounding extreme, there is no reason to eat a goldfish. It is killing an animal for no good reason and violates my inner morality standards. </p>
<p>How awful for the parents of the BU pledge. I don’t know how they come to terms with such a senseless tragedy.</p>
<p>
Hopefully the word missing was yet…</p>
<p>I wouldn’t be surprised if they eventually do bring charges against the hazers as they did in Florida with the Florida A&M student who died after hazing. they recently indicted 12 students on charges of manslaughter. That maybe the only way to stop this stupidity.
When my son went off for his Freshman year, I laid down several golden rules never to be broken,ever. One was not to do anything stupid regarding alcohol as a pledge or a member of a frat. Luckily he’s at a school that had some incidents in the past so there was a heightened awareness and less tolerance of the acts that tragically cost the BU student his life…
[Florida</a> hazing defendants to face manslaughter charges | Reuters](<a href=“http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/04/us-usa-florida-hazing-idUSBRE9231BG20130304]Florida”>http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/04/us-usa-florida-hazing-idUSBRE9231BG20130304)</p>
<p>^^I hear you, Vitrac, and agree with you. But they make sure they don’t tell ANYONE what goes on during pledging and that’s where the problems occur.</p>
<p>My S went through a VERY rigorous pledging (or whatever they call it), and he was also told that it’s not uniform across the board. At some colleges it’s much easier to get into the same frat. Swell. At one point he wanted to stop and I was fully supportive whatever he wanted to do. He said at that point he was in it too far to quit and was almost through it. THAT’s what they want you to believe and that when many tragedies occur.</p>
<p>Swallowing a live goldfish is disgusting. But in light of what else could happen, I’m thankful that was the worst. Or so I’m told. Before he got to college he told me he wasn’t interested in greek life and then they rope you in as a freshman and show you how wonderful it is…</p>
<p>Glad S2 is more computer geeky and not interested…</p>
<p>I’ve always been concerned about the time commitment for pledging and the hazing. It would seem that this takes away from studying, and so it’s hard to understand why sororities and fraternities that harm a person either academically, physically, or emotionally are approved of by the school. I can see the social benefits of belonging to a group, and service activities, but enough is enough. These stories crop up every so often, and even one young life is way too many. Nobody should be tortured or forced to do something like drink or swallow a goldfish. There are safe ways to “haze” like making them run laps or wear silly clothes. Imagine having to do service hours instead of spending all that time being hazed?</p>
<p>I had sent one of my BF’s an article titled “examining the benefits of greek life” as her daughter a freshman at Syracuse had just started the pledging process at AEPHI. Her response to me… “Examine this:
My daughters grades may drop as she is being abused by her future sisters and they sent me a bill for 895 for the privilege of being abused! Go AEPhi” This is a single mom, struggling to make ends meet with 2 more kids to go after this one so she is not amused by the greek process at the moment. I laughed at her response, but certainly understand her view. I think she is also thrilled that her daughter is having such a great college experience socially.</p>
<p>I was in a fraternity. We drank way more than humans should, just like many college kids. However, pledging was different. Our fraternity banned pledges from drinking at all. We had other forms of hazing (let’s not kid ourselves, all pledges everywhere get hazed), but alcohol was off limits.</p>
<p>Chardo is correct. Hazing is pretty extreme at most schools. Rockville, don’t believe that ZBT is above it all. They haze severely at Texas and other schools…While I am very against hazing, and the dangers it presents, the lifelong friends you make in Greek life are impressive…
Until the National’s really do something about it, things will not change. The problem with the governing bodies, is they say one thing publicly, and look the other way all year round. If frat’s really wanted to stop hazing, they could do it in a second. Put an adult for the six weeks i of initiation in the house, make him an independent person. and prohibit it. They don’t. The guys running National’s are brothers, they were hazed, and they believe in the traditions…</p>
<p>The thing that is unique about ZBT at Elon this year is that it was a brand new chapter. So, there was not a group of older brothers and a group of freshmen pledges. Everyone who wanted to join was on equal footing and they were all initiated last week. So, while I am sure there is drinking in the off campus houses, there wasn’t a traditional pledging/hazing process. And hopefully they will not start one in the future!</p>
<p>I’d be in favor of the hazing tradition to end. It’s an old ritual, but in today’s world, there could be better substitutes. Of course, I have no authority to do so. What might work is if parents intervene- after all, parents pay the fees.</p>
<p>Just back home after moving S2 out of his dorm. We had plenty of time to talk in the car. I think hazing is different for different frats and at different schools. My S told me that all pledges at his school had to attend a meeting about hazing to be aware of what was not tolerable, I guess. He said that pledging for SAMMY involved no alcohol for pledges, in fact it was their job to be a designated driver. There were also firm study hours as that fraturnity prides itself on the high GPA of their collective membership. I got a letter bragging about that when my S first entered the school. I’m not saying that it is all perfect but I think when you are a small frat of a religious minority the goal is to draw kids in not scare them off. I don’t know how it would have been if he went all the way through but I kind of liked the designated driver plan. My S said something interesting to me. He said it is a bad decision to give a minor a bottle of alcohol to drink but it is also a bad decision on the part of the minor to drink it. So perhaps at that antihazing meeting they stressed that kids be responsible for themselves. I don’t expect that any amount of proactive education will eliminate the problem but it seems to be a step in the right direction. What a tragedy to lose a child that way.</p>
<p>The news at BU is sad and devastating. It seems as though we are hearing such tragic events every semester, and then we are hearing that schools are cracking down on hazing. As socaldad mentioned, the Nationals need to enforce change, or it will not happen. The students who go through hazing, (although now they tend not to call it hazing given that they are not permitted to do it), promise never to tell the details. The desire to gain entry to these groups is so large that the kids participate, even when they know it may be illegal or something they highly do not wish to do. The more difficult it is to gain entry, the more desirable admission seems to be. And of course once they are “in” they look back upon the experience as fun / funny - therefore they become part of the “other side” the following year, encouraging the Freshmen to do things against their better wishes. These kids feel as though it is a “right of passage”, and then they earn bragging rights. </p>
<p>Parents who know what goes on (or perhaps “assume”, since their kids are hesitant to be completely honest), typically do not want to get involved, as their kids have begged them not to call (Nationals and/or the university), for fear of ruining their Greek experience. </p>
<p>This type of news is awful. And it seems as though it does not get the national coverage that it deserves. </p>
<p>My heart goes out to the family.</p>
<p>^^Excellent post, Champs. Well said.</p>
<p>Sometimes I need a good slap of reality and well… I recently discovered that I have a older cousin who lives in London. He is in his early 80s and for over 50 years now has been a Professor at City University London. Yes, he is STILL teaching. We have been emailing each other and he really is an amazing person. I wish I had met him earlier in my life.</p>
<p>I recently wrote to him about our college searches and how D2 is a “lost soul” and doesn’t know what she wants to study and how she might be graduating early, and blah, blah, blah… </p>
<p>He wrote back and it really helped put it all into perspective. I thought I would share with the group what he wrote back to me as it really did help as both of my girls are not ones who will be going to the “A” list schools as they don’t have 4.0+ GPAs, or the 2200+ SAT scores and 14 AP classes and resumes a yard long. They are however happy and caring girls and don’t hang out with the “wrong” crowd.</p>
<p>I hope that by posting this, it will help not only other parents but students as well as the very end of his piece ties nicely into the conversation about what happened to the poor young lad at BU."</p>
<p>"As an older man, may I here, appear to be a bit patronizing, though this is not intended? I have found in my own case that all the decisions that really affected my path through life, were made almost without thought, while those over which I agonized, rarely were significant. Thus, my decision to leave industry to go back to college for a higher degree, was made without too much reflection, my choice of a teaching career, afterwards, was entirely unanticipated, indeed, I never wanted to see the inside of a university again after my long and difficult time getting my PhD and at the time that I was offered the job, I was on the brink of accepting one in the USA. This was the time of the space race and European engineers and scientists were being recruited wholesale to ensure that America got to the Moon first. I asked E to marry me after meeting her at a party and taking her out only 5 times in one fortnight. We hardly knew each other that well and when she visited my home for the first time and saw a letter addressed to Dr. Jones, she thought it was someone else. This was surely the most important decision that I ever made and one for which I consider myself to be most fortunate*. More recently, we moved to our new home only 19 months ago after having decided that it was suitable almost as soon as we walked into the hallway, although it was filthy, full of rubbish and suffering from over 50 years of neglect. </p>
<p>The point that I am trying to make is that I do not think that your daughters choice of university or career is critical. The differences between one institution and another are not great and what they learn there will largely be forgotten within five years of graduation. Few people, other than the most dedicated, such as doctors or scientists, end up making their living in the topic which they studied and, even in my own case, where I studied engineering and practiced this for my whole working life, there is very little that I learned as an undergraduate that I have used since then. S2 is not a lost soul, if she does not know what she wants to study. The real benefit of any university course should be to learn the art of thinking independently and gaining the ability to find out what needs to be known, by oneself. Mainly, I hope that they choose institutions in which they are happy and where they gain these skills in good company, not being led aside en route by bad influences. This is only an opinion. You may have valid reasons to disagree."</p>
<p>*they’ve been married for 47 years.</p>
<p>Thank you, this is beautiful.
Choosing who to spend your life with is probably one of the biggest decisions one ever will make.
Maybe we need to keep this thread open for several years and let it morph into the shidduch thread ;)</p>
<p>justamom - thank you for sharing - truly words of wisdom. And very timely for all of our parents of hs/college seniors.</p>
<p>justamom - thank you for posting the letter. Great words of wisdom, and quite touching.</p>
<p>Pennylane - it’s not such a stretch! People who first met on this thread have become friends and met in real life, some of our kids have met as well. S2 will be living in his frat house with the son of another CC poster next year. I’m all for it!</p>
<p>For our non-Jewish friends, a shidduch is a form of matchmaking. It is an introduction of two single adults with hope it will lead to marriage. My parents actually met this way. They lived in the same city, and their mothers met one day on a city bus, and started chatting. Being good Jewish mothers, the conversation quickly turned to their single adult children, who were in need of a suitable spouse. My grandmothers exchanged names and phone numbers and a shidduch was made! My parents were married a few months later. They celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary two years ago, so I guess some traditions work.</p>
<p>Justamom - that was a great letter. I agree completely (yet I have obsessed about college choices like a pro). I chose my university without considering alternatives and for mostly the wrong reason, yet things worked out pretty well. I gave DD wide berth to make her decision and she made a very mature decision for mostly the right reasons (and without a lot of neurotic hand wringing). Some how, some way, things usually work out. Now if I could just take my own advice :-).</p>
<p>RVM- It’s great that this thread has resulted in friendships. I like that the families here are supportive of each other. I know it’s hard when kids face peer discussions and expectations when choosing colleges, but it’s also most important that our kids are good people, well adjusted, and successful at what they are doing wherever they choose to go. They would be good friends to have.
I love the story about your parents. Congratulations to them.</p>