The salaries from the two sources are actually reasonably consistent with one another, after considering the methodology differences. DoE reports a median of $55k 5-6 years after graduating (10 years after starting). Payscale reports a median of $59k 0-5 years after graduating.
Rather than salary, the more noteworthy differences relate to cost. The ranking in which Weslayan does poorly appears to use sticker tuition cost, even though the overwhelming majority of those in the federal FA group from which salaries are surveyed do not pay sticker price.
The ranking in which Weslayan does well lists an average cost of $12k, which is based on the average net cost for federal FA recipients in the $48k to $75k income group, even though the vast majority of those in the Payscale salary survey that was used likely had a higher average cost.
Note how closely these pays off the most rankings follow listed cost for $48k to $75k income federal FA families. One can predict the rankings almost perfectly by looking at cost alone. The only outlier among the top 17 is MIT, which seems to be ranked above expectation based on the $8.5k listed cost. MIT would be expected to rank ~10th based on cost, but was actually 2 places higher at 8th.
While neither of these costs methodologies make much sense to me, the important cost is not any of the above, nor is it the average is for a particularly salary group. The important cost is the cost for a particular individual. Whether the college “pays off” or not may vary quite a bit between someone paying the full $72k sticker price and someone with ~$0 net cost to parents after grant aids.
Unless you know how to turn your “fluffy” field into something lucrative. There are a good number of jobs that make decent money for artists and poets, if they know how to leverage these skills in the right way.
Sheesh, I can’t believe I used “leverage”, but I couldn’t think of a better word to use.
Shame on USA Today for publishing that article. It serves NO purpose. I agree that a lot of grads from LACs won’t be going on to earn six digit salaries right out of school, but is that the ONLY reason to go to college? My friend’s S graduated a few years ago from Tulane. He’s now doing disaster relief work for peanuts. But he is fulfilled. His career has an impact on people’s lives! Why isn’t stupid USA Today instead publishing an article on Colleges Whose Grads Go On To Make a Difference? So sick of money money money.
Unfortunately, the high cost of college (relative to most students’ and families’ financial resources) forces them to consider “money money money” if the students want to go to college at all.
My neighbor’s daughter graduated from Barnard with a degree in psychology. She’s working for a non-profit (not sure what she’s doing, exactly). I know graduates from Duke and Harvard following this same path.
Maybe we should take a cue from Lindagaf and start a thread on colleges whose grads go on to make a difference…
I suppose if earning a low salary was a surprise to the majority of these graduates, this list might have some more relevance. But at several of the schools listed, graduates plan to go on to jobs in the non-profit sector, teaching, social work, the arts, academia, etc. I’d be more interested in an apples-to-apples comparison among, say, Gender Studies majors at Carelton and Gender Studies majors at WashU.
I applaud those who make a difference, but that is not as easy for students who graduate with student loans and/or don’t come from wealthy families. It definitely takes financial security to be able to volunteer abroad in most cases.
Regarding the above posts, it might be the case that financial outcomes – when averaged, and compared across schools of similar characteristics – correspond to general post-graduation prospects in varied careers of individual interest.
Of course, but isn’t that taken into account even before one matriculates, or at least declares a major? I just think that some of this is the “fault” of the major, not the institution, and I would be interested to see a more accurate comparison when it comes to dollars well spent.
@ucbalumnus , be that as it may, this list will just make anyone reading it think “oh no, can’t send my kid there.” Meanwhile, how many colleges just missed the list? Hundreds. It’s the list that’s the problem.
MANY students will get “worthless” degrees at Harvard and Alabama too, right? Some student might go massively into debt for a post-grad degree and with all that debt, might end up earning the same as the kid from Bennington. We all know it’s mostly about the person and not necessarily the college.
While the list/ranking at the beginning of this thread is fairly useless for the various reasons cited upthread, I do think there needs to be more transparent and methodologically consistent disclosure of the cost/benefits of attending each college, vocational, grad or professional school, especially if students receive federal or state supported student loans since we the taxpayer end up footing the cost of any defaults. There are all sorts of mandated and standard disclosures of most investments we make, but for this huge investment of time (4y+) and money, there are no consistent and easily accessible and understandable standards for the “consumer”.
On the cost side, this is easy. COA per year and projected over 4 years is already pretty accessible. As part of any financial aid award involving loans, there should be a clear calculation of total amounts to be paid back (interest, fees, principal) and monthly payments, including a clear declaration of when payments start and when interest begins to accrue. This needs to be summarized clearly and in standardized format, not buried in the actual loan documentation for easy comparison purposes.
Outcomes is harder, but basic standardized info should be attainable without relying on surveys. Schools already segment students by major. The government has salary, tax and employer industry classification data. From there, it is not hard to pull together data on employment rates and median salaries by school by major and by years since graduation. Industry and geographical information is also available. While historical performance of others cannot predict individual future performance, I’d sure like to know the general outcomes of students preceding me in that program for that school. Financial, employment or employment field may not matter to some, but for others who may incur a significant loan burden, this info is pretty important.
I agree with @Lindagaf so much. These stats are a snapshot but a kind of useless one.
If we are really going to emphasize “money money money,” then let’s go all out and include the odds of marrying someone wealthy at each of these institutions and thus increasing your net worth if not necessarily your salary. (Yes, I am being facetious!)
Also, if my math serves me correctly, the average college graduate is 21-22 and therefore 10 years out would be 31-32. Some humans start to think about having babies around that time. Sometimes, one partner scales back on work hours when a new human being enters their household. Women do this much more frequently than men. I note that several of the schools on the list, e.g., Sarah Lawrence, Smith, Vassar, and Mount Holyoke, have student bodies with more women than men. Did the statisticians take that into account when calculating these numbers?
I also agree with @MWolf. Humanities and social science majors making robust salaries are FAR less rare than a lot of people on CC seem to think. And while everyone wants to make enough money to live comfortably, not everyone would share the assumption that making $120,000/year is a better life than making $70,000/year…particular given that quite a number of the best paying jobs are concentrated in high cost of living areas.
When I looked at the list, I thought of Rocking the Boat, a nonprofit which teaches kids to build, row and sail wooden boats in the South Bronx (poorest district in the nation). They also work to make sure their kids graduate from high school or get their GED, and go on either to college or trade school. Their founder and executive director is Adam Green, a Vassar grad.
I think USA Today should ask all the kids who have gone through Rocking the Boat over the past 22 years whether Adam Green’s Vassar education “paid off”.
Even before seeing @Data10’s post (#14), my first thought upon reading the title of this article was "I bet they could simply rename any list they come up with as “top 50 colleges with the most students working in the arts.”
Not sure why people are upset about the list-perhaps if it was titled as “high tuition private schools with low salaries for grads at age 28” it would avoid the value judgment some seem to find so offensive. Factual data about salaries is relevant for most people, even if they understand the various factors which may account for the data results.
The average Holyoke admit actually would not be an automatic into UMAss Amherst Commonwealth honors program. And all honors admits would be competitive for MH. Women only of course lol. No knock on MHC but the quality of the honors college and the university overall is no longer the wide chasms of academic excellence.
And using Wharton and Caltech vs the world is always a default argument.
With healthcare, you kind of know the outcome (at least hope for certain outcome), but you don’t know the cost. With higher education, you kind of know the cost, but you don’t know the outcome. Is one worse than the other?
I’m not upset about the list. I have no connection to any school on it. What I object to is the notion that going to one of these schools will somehow lower your earnings potential. I think at least 90% of what we’re seeing here is due to difference among the incoming student populations and their ambitions.
For instance, the average early to mid career salary of students at Lehigh is undoubtedly higher that that of students at Wesleyan. Well (and excuse my rudeness here) duh! Lehigh offers engineering, a field that offers high initial salaries, and Wesleyan doesn’t. If my kid’s not interested in engineering that salary information is pretty much useless. What I’d like to know is whether my English major will make more coming out of Lehigh or Wesleyan. This list doesn’t give us any idea. If my kid really wants to be an academic, will they have an easier time getting a faculty appointment after attending Reed or the University of Oregon?
I agree much of the difference is due to simply differences in incoming students, but I do not discount that one’s peer group, and the faculty focus of a college, can greatly impact an undecided student’s choice of major and career plans. Many students change their majors. If one is surrounded by students majoring in business, or in creative writing, one may be more likely to pursue that option. Many of the LACs on the list offer a critical mass of students pursuing the arts, which may or may not be of interest to an undecided student.