Colleges which offer undergraduate musical theatre degrees

soozievt · December 20, 2009, 6:40pm

utepsong, I have not written barbs or vitriol. I believe CC truly desires one Big List. You are fairly new to CC and may not realize it but the Big List was always continually updated. It is NOT a new idea to update the list. No members were able to edit the list when it was on a link except a few members who had access to the Geocities site. Members here, when they knew of new programs, let those who kept that list know and it was updated. When CC moved the list to a thread directly on the forum, members still could inform CC of updates. They could then and they can now. It was never closed in terms of members providing updates. I think CC did not make it open for others to edit it directly. That’s all.

I don’t see value in a new list that only added one program yet eliminated all the programs that CC has already gathered up.

I do not feel threatened as you claim. I questioned the need for two lists and still do. I also question having a list on CC that eliminates MT programs that CC members already gathered up. I believe it is a valid question for those who have been here a long while. I don’t see the need for duplicity here to update two different lists, but carry on with a new list if you wish.

I have questioned posts. I have not attacked you personally and have no desire to whatsoever. I welcome what you have to contribute. Please do not attack me. Keep to the issues/topics at hand.

utepsong · December 20, 2009, 7:01pm

Good info MUSThCC, thanks!

Soozievt, I was on topic. You are repeating yourself, so I guess I have to. I posted my incomplete list so that I could get a response from CC posters about programs that were missing. Having observed the posters on the MT threads I knew they would chime in quickly. There were several programs missing from the Big List as well. My innocent thread has succeeded in getting both the Big List and my list updated and closer to being accurate (only closer still not definitive). No one, unless they read this thread even knows there is another list other than the Big Listthe thread simply says undergraduate programs that offer MT degrees. I may have not posted until last year, but I have been reading and visiting CCs musical theatre threads since some time in 2005. I just wanted some others to help me with my research on American MT programs and they have/are. I am not interested in arguing this point anymore with you. However, you are aggressively going after any poster who does not instantly agree with you or you find confusing. Check the various threads. I am not the only one who has pushed back when you started getting defensive. Let it go. I had no malicious intent toward you or CC. I am only seeking information. By the way I run one of the music theatre programs listed on your forum. Please post your opinions as such and not as fact because the facts are nebulous in the word of MT at best.

soozievt · December 20, 2009, 7:25pm

utepsong, I am aware that you run a program.

I do feel attacked as you are commenting about ME personally. I am posting about the topic itself.

I very much welcome you to the forum and glad you are posting. It may have been helpful to start a thread and mention if you had any updates to CC’s Big List. Your list was confusing and I simply asked for clarification. Your list contributed ONE new program, University of North Texas. Thanks for that update.

Thank you everyone else for updates. CC members have been updating that list all the time. The list was not two years old as you say. The list is longer than two years old and it has been updated within the past two years as well. I am glad members continue to update it and thank you for letting CC know about University of North Texas. I am of the opinion that we don’t need two lists though. Updates are always appreciated.

Perhaps you are doing research for your organization. You may wish to start with the Big List that CCers have gathered as it is more complete than your list and I was trying to point that out to you as your list was missing many MT programs on CC’s Big List (I only listed some you were missing and didn’t take the time to list all you were missing). I would have no idea that you knew of the Big List based on your first post. I have no idea why you would think I feel threatened as I did not create the Big List whatsoever. I do care about the forum and directing newbies to MT to the Big List and making sure there is no confusion for them. I was confused myself when I came upon this thread. Sorry for my confusion.

Again, welcome to CC as a poster and for your contributions.

MichaelNKat · December 21, 2009, 1:45am

utepsong, before being critical of anyone questioning your posts or accusing them of attacking you based on their opinions and attempting to stifle discussion, perhaps you need to revisit your posts to understand why some posters have reacted the way they have. Let’s put the comments which have been made in the context of your posts:

<h1>1: Starts thread called “Colleges Which Offer Undergraduate Musical Theater Degrees”. A list of schools is posted, formatted and styled to appear like the “Big List” but which omits about 20 schools that appear on the “Big List”. There is no disclosure of this, not withstanding that your list is organized exactly like the “Big List”. There is also no explanation of why you posted your list; there is simply your list titled the way it is.</h1>

<h1>3: You claim the “Big List” isn’t accurate and omits programs. Notably, you have never posted a request, as others have, that a school be added to the “Big List”. You state that your list was created by the MTEA at its last conference but don’t disclose whether you have any relationship with MTEA. While you claim the “Big List” is inaccurate and omits programs, you don’t disclose that your list omits about 20 programs that are on the “Big List” and includes only 1 school not on the “Big List”.</h1>

<h1>8: You state that you will review the schools omitted from the “Big List” and if they “meet muster” with the MTEA, will add them to “our” list, implying but not explicitly stating that you have some official capacity with MTEA. You also don’t disclose what the criteria are to include a school on the MTEA list which if you were interested in engendering substantive discussion would be a good place to start.</h1>

<h1>15: You state that you posted your list to promote “conversation” about schools. However, you had not disclosed your connection with MTEA, the criteria for a school to be on the list, that you were seeking discussion or even posed a question or comment. You did not present any new information not already available on the “Big List” or on the individual school sub-forums at the top of the MT page. The only things you had done were to to post a listed styled like the “Big List”, not disclose that a load of schools were omitted nor the criteria for inclusion and titled it as though it was a definitive list. Just what kind of discussion did you desire to promote? Bear in mind that there presently are a multitude of individual school sub-forums where schools are discussed in depth and a multitude of threads on the main pages where questions are posed that engender substantial and informative discussion. Nothing up through your post 15 posed questions or provided new information; your posts seemed only to promote comments from a variety of posters that your list was inaccurate and confusing. Is that the discussion you desired?</h1>

<h1>21: For the first time you explained why schools were missing from your list. You stated that BA programs with an emphasis or concentration in MT and not an actual MT degree program were omitted. Not only does this suggest, though you don’t explicitly disclose, that your list is intended to serve a more narrow purpose than the “Big List”, a disclosure that should have been made up front to avoid misleading readers, it also makes clear that your list excludes an important segment of educational opportunities in MT from degree conferring schools and therefore is of limited utility. You offer no explanations about any of this.</h1>

<h1>33: After several posters comment that that your list is confusing and incomplete, you state that you never claimed that your list was definitive or represents mtea. This is inconsistent with posts #1, 3 and 8.</h1>

<h1>42: You state that you posted an incomplete list in order to get CC posters to comment on schools that were missing. If that was your purpose, why didn’t you simply ask that question in post #1? You disclose for the first time that you are doing research on American MT programs. If that is so, why didn’t you say so in post #1? In addition, why don’t you disclose for whom you are doing the research. Finally, you disclose for the first time that you are the director of a MT program but don’t disclose which one. Are you doing your research for MTEA, your school or for any other entity and what kind of research are you doing? Simply posting a “bald faced” list seems like a pretty unfocused way to do research.</h1>

If you didn’t want confusion, speculation and reactivity to your posts, perhaps you should have approached this thread a bit differently.

utepsong · December 21, 2009, 12:37pm

MichaelNKat, this forum is called college CONFIDENTIAL, why do I have to divulge anything about myself if I dont want to. Every question as it has arisen about my innocent post I have answered even though I dont feel I have/need to. I put the original list together for a presentation for mtEA, of which I am a member, it was altered after that presentation by members who had additional information, and it has been altered again here by posting it here on CC. It was not put together officially by mtEA, and I have said that. I am trying to put together an accurate list and I am primarily interested in programs that offer degrees in MT and the Big List includes some programs that dont. The only complaints I have read on this thread are from senior members like you. I understand that you want things the way you want them, but frankly how did this cause anyone real problems. All the other new or junior members (of which you all are so concerned) have politely posted additions or deletions or suggestions. They havent appeared confused or upset. They havent abandoned the Big List. I never suggested they do that. I only said it wasnt accurate either, but since I made that statement CollegMom and CC have opened it up and it is more accurate now that it was on Friday when I started this thread. Again for a forum that claims to be confidential, you expect a lot of information about your posters and that seems to defeat the purpose. You guys have way too much time on your hands I was just checking in on the break so I may not be back for a while.

soozievt · December 21, 2009, 1:37pm

utepsong,

When you first posted the list here as a new thread, I thought you were trying to help CC members by providing a list of colleges that offer MT. So, I directed you to the existing list which is continually updated in fact. You said you knew of the list but that CC’s list was missing a handful of programs. I asked you which ones and you named three and in fact, two of the three were on CC’s Big List. I thank you for alerting CC about University of North Texas. If your thread was meant to help because you noticed CC was missing some programs, it might have been a good idea to start a thread with, “programs to add to CC’s Big List…University of North Texas…anyone have any others?” Otherwise, your list understandably raises questions. Lots of old timers direct those new to the forum to the Big List and so having two lists would confuse them to know which one was comprehensive or which one had a different set of criteria, and so forth.

I pointed out to you that your list is missing MANY colleges that offer MT. You then pointed out that your list is a list you compiled for mtEA, an organization/alliance you belong to and that they may not be interested in schools that do not offer a DEGREE IN musical theater. CC’s list has all colleges that offer PROGRAMS in musical theater. So, you may have different criteria for your list. If so, I don’t understand your list as you have programs that don’t issue a degree IN musical theater. For example, Wagner has a BA in Theater that has a MT emphasis. Tisch has a BFA program that trains in MT but the degree it confers is BFA Drama. Circle in the Square is a Certificate Program. Northwestern is a BA with a MT Certificate. University of Nebraska just offers a MT Minor. USC just offers a MT Minor. Marymount Manhattan is a MT Minor. And so on. So, I don’t understand your list if your criteria differs from CC’s list as you say, to be a list of MT DEGREES. But so that we can understand, what does your list represent or what do you hope to compile, or what is the criteria for a school to be on your list that differs than the criteria for CC’s list?

So, I am realizing now that the intent of your thread/list isn’t about helping so much but more about YOUR research. And so…let us help YOU then. It seems silly to have members tell you all the programs you are missing when you could cut to the chase and use CC’s Big List which is a comprehensive list of schools that offer training/programs in MT, whether their degree is officially a MT degree or not. If you want a list of all the MT programs, start there and if you need to eliminate any, do so. I don’t think your criteria for your list is as you wrote as you have programs on it that don’t confer a degree in MT per se.

As far as updating CC’s list, that is an ongoing thing and has been for years. Not sure how your thread helps with that, as you start with a new list of your own, which is a subset of CC’s list. Why not start with CC’s list and ask for any new additions or anything that should be removed, if you really want colleges that offer MT programs, as opposed to degrees in MT. For years, members have added suggestions to The Big List. A keeper of the list has added them as it came to the attention of CC. This is not NEW.

I think you are looking for help with YOUR research and that is absolutely fine of course. That is not the same as posting a list to help members know which colleges offer MT. CC has such a list. No need to duplicate it. If you have new information, please share as everyone has been doing for years to update the Big List continually. I don’t see how your list helps members, but again, your intent may be to create a list for your organization with different criteria, though that is not entirely clear.

I’m not sure the value in people now letting you know all the programs YOUR list is missing since it readily can be found on CC’s Big List. Early in this thread, I pointed out about 18 you were missing but didn’t take the time to type out ALL the ones you were missing. A shorter cut would have been to take CC’s Big List, add University of North Texas, and asked if there were any other additions people knew of (there have now been some). For example, some you are still missing (but again, not taking the time to tell you ALL as they are right on CC’s big list): UC-Irvine, Temple University, Rockford College, Christopher Newport University, Western Kentucky, University of New Hampshire, Plymouth State, CAP21 Professional Musical Theater Training Program, Nazareth, Manhattanville, De Sales, West Chester, Wilkes, Texas Christian University, and so on. Happy to help. :)

So, again, let us help you with your list and if you want colleges that offer MT programs, save time and use the Big List on CC.

soozievt · December 21, 2009, 1:48pm

I also want to comment on the comment that some of us have “too much time on our hands.” I have participated on CC for 7 1/2 years. Sometimes I post out of my own interests as a parent like anyone else. But over the years, I have a LOT of posts (my post count that shows over 14,000 posts doesn’t include all the posts I put up starting in 2002, as CC started a new count when it went to a new format in 2004, nor does it count Cafe posts), where I have volunteered countless hours to help others to field questions and to share information. I am a college counselor who advises applicants to theater and musical theater college programs (as well as regular college applicants) and try to help in a pro bono fashion on CC to help many at one time, more than can be done with the highly individualized help that families pay me to do. Yes, I devote a lot of hours to volunteering on a regular basis here. One may consider it too much time on one’s hands but I put in time to help others rather than for pay a great deal. We all have busy jobs and responsibilities but take time out to volunteer as well.

Then, there are other very knowledgeable old timers like MichaelNKat, to whom you address this remark, but also MANY others, who are DONE with the college selection and admissions process with their own kids, who have stayed on to give back. These folks have given unselfishly of their time to CCers, those new to the process. They have contributed to making CC the best resource on MT colleges that can be found. And all on a volunteer basis. Nobody is paid to post on CC.

I am delighted that you have begun posting on CC! CC welcomes college professionals and others in this industry to help members here. I hope you will help by offering your expertise in the field, like other college reps tend to do…such as DoctorJohn, KatMT, kjbc, and several others here. So far, many of your posts have been PR types of links to information about your program, your graduates, your dept. head, etc. You did post a list of colleges on the rankings thread, but it was a subset copy of CC’s list of sub forums of MT Colleges and not sure how that helped a discussion about rankings, which was two years old and had already made the point that MT colleges are not ranked (many threads on that topic here in fact). How did a list of alphabetically ordered subset of the MT subforums help? I didn’t comprehend that. Likewise, not sure how trying to duplicate CC’s Big List by adding a new “List of MT colleges” is helpful when your list is a subset of the existing list on CC.

I would imagine readers would be very appreciative if, as the head of a MT program, you can shed light on various things like the audition process and other issues that interest those pursuing MT training. You have a wealth of knowledge to share. And if you decide to help out here, we’d be grateful and not tell you that you had too much time on your hands. :D

62442 · December 21, 2009, 2:21pm

In response to post #45 I wanted to say that as a relatively new member I was initially confused by your post. I think this whole fiasco could have been avoided if it was said upfront what the purpose and source of the list was.

I’ll cheer for soozie’s last paragraph in post #47. Let’s share the wealth instead of arguing! Why don’t we all just leave this behind and move forward. :)

xatty · December 21, 2009, 3:19pm

“Let’s share the wealth instead of arguing! Why don’t we all just leave this behind and move forward.” Well said 62442.

I have followed this thread as it has unfolded. It has provided some entertainment, caused some rolling of my eyes, and given insight – I’m guessing MichaelNKat is an attorney based on his well-crafted post #44 :). After reading all the posts in this thread I have no questions that must be answered concerning any poster’s intent. I think the newbies should have a good understanding about the Big List and what it represents. My suggestion at this point is we move on to other topics. Nothing more to see here.

I hope everyone has an excellent holiday season.

soozievt · December 21, 2009, 3:30pm

I think that would be best as well.

If anyone wishes to help utepsong with his research to create a particular list, they can do so here. No need to replicate here any messages of anything that needs to be added to CC’s Big List. If you have any new information that pertains to CC’s Big List of MT Colleges, I think you should post it on the Big List thread pinned at the top of CC’s MT Forum.

Thanks, as always, to everyone for their contributions on CC!

MommaJ · December 24, 2009, 4:44am

I’m primarily a lurker around here (have D who is a freshman BA/MT major), but I did want to speak up to say that given its title, OP’s initial post was indeed quite confusing and even misleading, even if unintentionally so. While I agree with the consensus that it is best to move on, I would like to recommend that the thread be either renamed to indicate that it does not contain a comprehensive list, or simply taken down. Some may come here and read only that first post and, without the benefit of the later clarifying information, be quite misled. It wasn’t that long ago that I was a total babe in the woods on the subject of college musical theater, and I can easily see my prior harried and naive self just grabbing that list and running with it. Perhaps the mods can be of some help here?

breezer289 · December 26, 2009, 1:32pm

While I agree, moving on should be encouraged, I think there’s no need to take down or retitle this thread. I don’t think that students are going to merely see a list on a thread and take it as law. At the least, they will read a little bit more of the thread, see what has taken place here, then judge for themselves whether this is a list they would like to further look into. By just taking it down we are censoring people, and I don’t think that is necesary.

tenorchuck · March 10, 2010, 2:51pm

I would like to correct the information on this forum. Shorter College does, in fact, require BFA music theater majors to audition.

modernmillie · March 11, 2010, 6:33pm

So, I’m guessing all of you fussing on this thread are adults. Jaayzus.

reneemarie · March 24, 2010, 1:19am

Hi, I’m new to this; my D is a junior and wants to get into a MT undergrad program. Her HS counselors are understaffed and really don’t know how to help. I find private CC’s on line that want to charge $4000 and up to help! I didn’t know this cottage industry existed.

I would like to hire a CC to help, but I don’t want to be ripped off or go to someone who claims they can help with MT, but really can’t. I just spent $175 on one like that. Does anyone have any advice for me? Thanks so much!

takeitallin · March 24, 2010, 2:02am

I would advise against paying someone to advise on MT programs. Our HS counselors were good, but knew next to nothing about MT. However, there is so much information available on this website, and some of the people here are extremely knowledgable and really know what they are talking about. There are students and parents here who have been through it all and can give some great advice. I would start by going to the top of the MT page and systematically going thru the different programs to compare- BA vs. BFA, costs, conservatory vs. academic programs, class size, audition vs. non-audition programs, etc. Don’t discount any programs based on cost as many of these schools offer substantial scholarships. Decide if you want to visit programs that your daughter is interested in, or wait til she has been accepted. Decide if she wants to do on-site auditions vs. Unifieds. Any question you can possibly think of can be (or already has been) answered on this site. Just be aware that majoring in MT is not like majoring ian any “normal” field- we have had 2 before this go thru college, and nothing I learned there helped me when it came to MT! Good luck!

Colleges which offer undergraduate musical theatre degrees

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