What can people tell me about Columbia Engineering?
S28 had thought it wasn’t a fit because of the Core. He felt it wouldn’t let him explore his interests outside of engineering. But when we looked at the requirements, there don’t seem to be as many requirements in SEAS.
He had also heard that at some Ivies, a lot of the engineering students don’t end up as working engineers, but instead go into finance or law or other fields.
Kid would love to be in NYC, so that’s a huge draw.
Up to 75% of engineers in general don’t end up in engineering roles.
My son’s second internship at his company wasn’t engineering. I asked him why. He said, they want people who think like engineers.
I remember this in my MBA too. The engineers had an easier time getting jobs.
Can’t speak to Columbia but this statement below, in general, can apply fo engineers everywhere although the level of job may be different. Engineering is a very rigorous and defined curriculum so having a lessened and modified core doesn’t mean he’ll have more opportunity to explore interests. It may be the modified core + engineering take up the entire course load so he might seek a curriculum map to see how the four years will look. They do show an option for minors so it may have possibilities for more but they should have course sequencing.
There’s various articles like this out there.
When it comes time to look at schools, depending on the discipline there are multiple schools in the city. For example, if Civil was the major, you also have The Cooper Union, NYU in Brooklyn, and City College. Not far is Manhattan U and then Hofstra and Stony Brook. And on the other side, across the river - NJIT and Stevens.
Good luck
I can’t remember if it was here or elsewhere, but I can’t find it. Basically someone said that if you want to work as an engineer, then the Ivies, other than Cornell, aren’t the best choice, because so many people are aiming for other careers. I asked if the same logic applied to Hopkins, which he liked, and the said no.
But I have no idea who said it, so of course I don’t know if this person is reliable.
I believe the different engineering departments at Columbia provide lists of the top companies that hire their students. That can give you a clue as to where kids are going and what kinds of roles are typical for first destinations post graduation. If that aligns with your student’s interests, great, if not, may be worth exploring different options.
I think, those who go to ‘higher’ level schools in general maybe have access to more “higher” level jobs - consulting, etc. But engineers go to law school (could be patent or environmental law, etc.) - that won’t matter where you go undergrad. But from Ivy maybe they have access to banking or top end consulting (McKinsey, BCG, Bain, etc.).
The career page is odd as they only show a few outcomes. There’s a second link for SEAS, which is engineering and more.
I think if someone offers an engineering major, I would assume they go in, at least, wanting to be engineers. Or that’s a consideration. Afterall, many jobs people end up in are unknown to them at 17. put Cornell’s career outcomes below since you mention them - and yes, their CivE majors seem to be mainly with construction type orgs although they had KPMG too - and I can’t be sure of actual roles.
But I would find a school he likes - and not try to over analyze, what the outcome could be. I would assume - whether Penn, Harvard, even Hopkins - engineering majors will intern and even become engineers and some engineering majors won’t. Most importantly is - where can you afford and then where will he be happy four years.
So much recruiting today is done online - as Cornell used to show on their career outcome database before they pulled down the how do they find a job (websites like indeed/linkedin) - and your son ultimately will be able to pursue the type of role he liked.
Penn - as an aside - shows a mean of $122.5K and Median of $132.5K for its school of engineering and applied science. I’ve got to think that’s many not going into engineering - because the salaries are too high. But I don’t see a database actually showing the jobs. Cornell, Civ Es, are in the 70s - as an example.
I don’t see Cvil at Penn - so I pulled Mechanical - and the top employers were SpaceX, McKinsey, BCG, Tesla and Boeing - all five or more hires. When you look at job titles, it’s a lot of software engineering (perhaps why the high salaries - even under the MechE Tab, Bankers and Traders, and Consultants.
To me, this would be the high end school difference - a Stony Brook or Rutgers or Pitt are FANTASTIC schools - but likely wouldn’t have that breadth of non engineering type jobs that the Ivies do.
My son interviewed for field engineers, plant engineers, and other roles (rotational programs) where some rotations would be engineering and some wouldn’t. Even today, he says some of his duties are engineering and some aren’t - which is good - he’s learning new things. And he went to an SEC school - so not highly rated. I tell the story - he met a Columbia grad from a neighboring defense company in Utah at Trivia Night - not sure how/why it came up but he found out he made more. For engineering jobs, they often pay by the where - not where you went to school - hence, when he spent 6 months in Irvine, he was given $700 more a month.
In the end, he should find that school that you can afford and feels like home. The rest will take care of itself - I believe.
I will look for that. I haven’t found it yet.
I don’t think the comment was so much that someone couldn’t graduate from Columbia, or Penn, or Princeton and work as an engineer. But that the culture in the school values those very high paying jobs like consulting, or investment banking. Whereas someplace that is more engineering heavy, like JHU, or CMU, or Georgia Tech, has people whose passion is engineering.
The link that @tsbna44 posted seems to say that about 5% of Columbia grads work in engineering fields other than CS/Software engineering. Elsewhere I found something that said that about 15% of Columbia undergrads major in engineering fields other than CS/Software engineering, so that certainly fits with the idea that many of them choose to do other things.
However, I am not really sure how that would impact his experience at the school. Is he more likely to find his “people” at some place like JHU?
Are his people those focused on engineering or a wider array of things ?
Are we thinking building things or would he have interest in things like cars and planes, etc.
I think people can find people anywhere - and sometimes out of the major.
The “75% of engineering graduates don’t work in engineering” seems to be a misinterpretation of https://www.bls.gov/ooh/field-of-degree/engineering/engineering-field-of-degree.htm and other stats.
Note that the linked page is not of new graduates, but those with an engineering degree at all stages of career.
Note that architecture and engineering occupations by itself looks like 29% (actual architecture is unlikely for an engineering graduate, due the path one must follow to go into architecture). Computer and mathematical occupations adds 16%, which are likely at least somewhat related to engineering (especially computer engineering and industrial engineering). Management occupations at about 18% are likely those who started working in engineering and then moved into (engineering) management. Sales and related occupations at 4% could include sales occupations where engineering knowledge is necessary. Business and financial occupations at about 7% could include those Wall Street and similar occupations that many target, and perhaps some of the kinds of things that industrial engineers go into.
So it would be way to pessimistic to infer that 75% of engineering graduates are unable to get a job in engineering at graduation. But it is likely that many engineering graduates, over the course of their careers, move into other (sometimes related) jobs at a later stage (e.g. engineering management).
Never said they can’t find jobs. Students often pursue other avenues or they get placed into jobs thinking they’re engineering and they aren’t - like my son’s second summer internship.
I know supply chain and operations are popular with engineers, as an example.
Back to OP - they are trying to determine (it appears) engineering vs non engineering outcomes - are certain schools better or more aligned for one than another as they compared a Columbia vs Cornell.
Looks like SEAS requirements include 27 credits of non-technical (humanities, arts, social science) courses, probably around 32 credits of introductory level math, physics, chemistry, computer science, and “Art of Engineering”:
https://www.cc-seas.columbia.edu/csa/advising_seas
https://www.cc-seas.columbia.edu/csa/seas_tech
A major like civil engineering could require around 63.5 credits in the major:
https://www.civil.columbia.edu/content/bs-civil-engineering
Adding these together gives 122.5 credits. Note that 128 credits (average of 16 credits per semester) are required to graduate, so taking more than about two free electives could require significant overloading. Advanced placement in math (i.e. starting in calculus 2 or multivariable calculus) may effectively give space for one or two more free electives.
Note that this volume of required courses is fairly common in engineering majors at various colleges. Columbia may also be more limiting in “schedule space to explore” because most of the non-technical courses (five of eight or nine) are specified to be specific courses or choice between two or three courses, leaving only three or four for exploration of the full range of humanities, arts, and social science.