Combating the Stigma

<p>Why must we over-analyze this so much? I have tremendous respect for the U of C as an academic institution but the vast majority of students (even those who are in the position of choosing between elite colleges) would find it absolutely miserable, socially. </p>

<p>OP, sure some people drink and socialize “normally” but they are in the overwhelming minority. The mere fact that you’re asking this question leads me to believe you have a vague idea of the answer already.</p>

<p>I’d pick a school like Cornell, Northwestern, Dartmouth, Penn, Vanderbilt, Michigan, etc. where academics are elite and common social outlets are the norm.</p>

<p>Caillebotte – And your support for “overwhelming minority” is . . . what? Is it as good as your support for “academics are elite” at Vanderbilt?</p>

<p>Seriously, a large majority of students at Chicago “drink and socialize ‘normally’”. The minority that doesn’t do one or the other may be larger than at Vanderbilt or Dartmouth. (I’m not so sure about some of the others; some of them, including Cornell, have an awful lot of students, and it may be that the non-partiers are just less visible.) I don’t know what you mean by “common social outlets”. All of the schools you name are frat-heavy, and Chicago is frat-light, but there are plenty of other frat-light schools, too, and the students at those schools and at Chicago all have plenty of party time.</p>

<p>The huge jump in the number of applications likely means the applicant pool is less self-selecting and more diverse/“normal” than those in the past.</p>

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<p>Probably. Although it’s controversial here to speak of it, the class of 2013 is much more social than previous classes, and this trend will probably continue into the class of 2014. In 10 years, Chicago will probably have shed its reputation as a haven for non-socialites.</p>

<p>JHS, I have nothing to provide other than anecdotal evidence and personal observation. I attend Cornell but my home’s in Chicago and I have many friends and former classmates at U of C. I’m tailoring my suggestion to the original post, which mentioned drinking, partying, and girls. U of C’s reputation as the antithetical party school didn’t randomly arise. Chicago’s fan base takes pride in its academic asceticism and eccentricity–obviously nothing new. As Cue said, it takes a unique kind of person to enjoy the Chicago experience. If you’re worried even one bit, like the OP, about the prevelance of drinking and sex at a school filled with 18-22 yos, then come on, it’s clearly not the right decision.</p>

<p>Phuriku - actually, can you speak more about that? How is the Class of 2013 different than previous classes specifically? What sort of anecdotal commentary do you have on this point? I’d be interested to hear it.</p>

<p>I certainly think the move to the common app will make the U of C more mainstream, and I certainly don’t think this is a bad move. With the huge rise in applications, it looks like the Class of 2014 will at least resemble the Class of 2013, so I’m interested to hear more about this.</p>

<p>Thanks Cue7 for taking the time to write all that.</p>

<p>I was admitted EA and it’s certainly food for thought.</p>

<p>Basically, there are about 200-300 of the same students who go out to the same frat parties every weekend. That’s not to say that you know all 300-odd people. Rather, everyone pretty much recognizes everyone from all of the previous weekends. </p>

<p>Nonetheless, I have had a lot of fun here after almost 3 years in the college. As you grow older, you’ll definitely begin to tone down your partying (at least a little). During my first two years I went out Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday practically every week. Now, I go out once a week and party (can be pretty chill or pretty crazy) at my house at least twice a week. </p>

<p>Partying is a great way to unwind on the weekends. I spend the week studying my ass of, reading hundreds of pages, leading various student/university organizations, and working a job at the reg. 1st - Year (and potentially 2nd Year for some people) isn’t really too much of a grind. I mean, you’re working harder and faster than most of your friends at other schools, but you won’t really get down and dirty until you’ve got through the initial part of the core.</p>

<p>“The DIII sports teams are pretty mediocre, even for DIII…”</p>

<p>From the Athletic Site: National Rankings (2009-2010)
W. Indoor Track & Field: #4
W. Tennis: #4
M. Indoor Track & Field: #8
W. Swimming & Diving: #13
M. Swimming & Diving: #14
M. Tennis: #16
W. Soccer : #22
W. Basketball: #23</p>

<p>No, Kafkadream, those stats are very misleading. Have you heard of the NCAA Sears Directors Cup? It’s a ranking that ranks the top college sports program overall based on division. While the U of C might be pretty good in certain sports (women’s soccer, swimming and diving, etc.), overall, out of all DIII programs in the country, Chicago is currently ranked: 65th in the nation.</p>

<p>Is 65th overall really that great for DIII? I don’t think so - I think it’s pretty mediocre.</p>

<p>Go here for a detailed breakdown of the ranking:</p>

<p>[NACDA</a> OFFICIAL ATHLETIC SITE - Directors Cup](<a href=“http://www.nacda.com/directorscup/nacda-directorscup-current-scoring.html]NACDA”>http://www.nacda.com/directorscup/nacda-directorscup-current-scoring.html)</p>

<p>Interestingly, for DIII, Williams, WUSTL, Johns Hopkins, and Amherst are all in the top ten. NYU, Tufts, and Rochester are all in the top 30. So, it’s not unusual for strong academic schools to have good sports programs - especially at the DIII level. </p>

<p>At Chicago, as I said before, however, sports OVERALL are quite mediocre. Yes, certain sports are good (women’s soccer, getting better at the water sports, maybe track and field), but overall, Chicago really doesn’t have a good sports program.</p>

<p>Even MIT is way ahead of Chicago. That’s unfortunate.</p>

<p>(By the way, I’ll respond to your request a bit later, Cue7. I had written quite a large response last night and it was deleted due to a random 2-3 hour internet outage in all the dorms.)</p>

<p>Phuriku - thanks so much! As an interested alum, I’m always eager to hear the views of students currently at Chicago.</p>

<p>I’d be lying if I said your debate didn’t entertain me but I have to say thanks to all who replied. You’ve been rather helpful.</p>

<p>There seems to be an interesting struggle between people who are placing the scene at Chicago in perspective by comparing it to other places and thus, pointing out Chicago’s shortcomings, and people who vehemently defend Chicago as the promised land. (fun)</p>

<p>@Caillebotte, you’re absolutely right. I did ask the question with an idea of the answer (I believe I mentioned that in my post) and to be honest, was hoping that a lot of it was hype (or…anti-hype in this case), and that Chicago was just like any other college. Obviously this isn’t true. </p>

<p>@Cue7, definitely gotta thank you for your loooooong post about the subject matter. And I believe you understand the direction in which I was heading towards in my initial post. Yes I was asking about social affairs and social matters, because the fact of it is, most of the colleges that applicants of Chicago apply to are on the high end of academics and have a rich intellectual environment. That was pretty much a given at Chicago. </p>

<p>@JHS, it seems to me that you’re attempting to defend Chicago no matter what (which is admirable and speaks volumes about your positive experience there), but as I mentioned above, the intellectual depth and connection between students was never something I was worried about. Although you do concede the point that Chicago’s social atmosphere may be a bit dry in terms of non-academic related events. </p>

<p>@IHateUofC, sounds healthy :D</p>

<p>Oh and…</p>

<p>

I believe it was a “shallow” post that had to be made. I realize upon posting it may seem as if my number one concern with college is to get ****faced and party and have sex, but that’s not true. I thought it was pretty much a given that I value academics and such simply from the fact that I did apply (and was accepted to) Chicago. Although to be honest, I haven’t placed maximum effort into my school work at all in this lifetime. I’ve basically cruised through school, occasionally putting in a rough night to finish work I’ve procrastinated on, or study for a big test. Otherwise, I’m a lax student with the attitude of one. If I don’t fit your criteria for a serious student that you can respect, oh well. Such is life. (This applies to anyone who’s reading and judging, cause after all, everybody loves to judge and form fun perceptions/misconceptions.)</p>

<p>On the other hand, I’m pretty sure this issue is something of major concern for anyone applying and thinking about going to Chicago simply because of all the bad rep and talk there is out there regarding the subject. You may dismiss it as shallow, but the fact of the matter is, it’s reality. Regardless, thanks for the response. Cheers.</p>

<p>I’m not defending Chicago no matter what, I’m merely opining that there isn’t any meaningful difference between Chicago and Cornell insofar as (a) how much kids like to drink, and (b) having sex are concerned. And I am pretty darn certain that is the case. The average per-student alcohol consumption at Chicago is probably a little lower, even if you exclude people who don’t drink at all. I think that will be true of any urban school (even Penn) vs. any rural school, simply because there are lots more things to do in big cities, but it isn’t so smart to be *****faced on the el late at night. But, yeah, people may drink less at Chicago than Penn, too. It isn’t anything like night and day, though.</p>

<p>I like Chicago a lot, because my kids went/go there, and have learned a lot, and had great social lives with parties, and drinks, and (as far as I can tell) plenty of sex. And they think it was valuable, and enjoyed themselves. They don’t wish they had gone someplace else supposedly more fun. They do sometimes wish they had gone someplace with a better placement office and alumni jobs network.</p>

<p>(By the way, one of the funny things about Caillebotte’s post is that if you ask Chicago students who has it worse than they do, Cornell probably comes up more than any other place, because people think it’s hyper-competitive and people there are horrible to one another. Which I doubt is true at anything like the reputed levels.)</p>

<p>But that’s fine, because you knew what you thought before you posted. With your attitude, you would have gotten your butt kicked all over creation at Chicago, and you would have wound up whining all the time about it. In fact, your butt is going to get kicked at any college you choose that’s even remotely in the same category as Chicago. That’s something you know already, too. Good luck!</p>

<p>Cue7- you may be correct about “overall.” Thankfully the sport I’m interested in is top ranked at UChic.
And it’s not like you went to the school expecting a Big Ten-esque sports scene. There are many awfully weak academic DIs which are also poor in athletics (several such colleges in my area) but I doubt you would say since they’re not good at sports they just study 24/7 and do no partying at all- correct?</p>

<p>Cue7: I’d like to jump in on the issue of sports here at the U of C.</p>

<p>In short, I feel like it’s unfair to say that sports at the University of Chicago are pretty mediocre without considering different aspects of the athletic program here. You accurately pointed out that the university has some fantastic teams, and it is true that some of our teams struggle amongst their competitors. But I think there’s more to the picture that we’ve thus far neglected to discuss.</p>

<p>(In long,) I’ve played soccer for the last 17 years, 15 of which I played on traveling teams. I’ve played with some amazing soccer players who got full rides to fantastic DI programs. Our program is vastly different, yes. Could we compete with ND or North Carolina or Michigan State? No. Could some of our players have played at DI schools? Definitely. Many chose to come here instead because a) they liked the school, and b) the athletic programs here don’t treat you as an employee. We’re athletes at this school not because they are paying us but because we love our sport. We love our sport but our academics always come first. We don’t skip a lab to go to practice. I can’t tell you how many old teammates of mine are at schools where their sport is their number one priority, over even their family and course work. Now, I’ve only played two seasons out of my three years here because I chose to study abroad this fall in Rome. I wanted to take an advanced Italian course abroad and I would not have been able to do that in a different quarter. I don’t regret it. Soccer is one passion of mine but it doesn’t consume my life at college like I know it does for some of my friends at DI schools. </p>

<p>The University of Chicago doesn’t give athletes preferential treatment but neither are we neglected like many would presume. Most varsity teams play abroad once every four years. I went on a ten day trip to Italy with my squad. Other teams have been to Japan, China, Germany, Argentina, Holland, Chile and more that I cannot recall. We play other competitive teams who also attend academically rigorous institutions (Emory, WashU, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, etc.) and we typically fly when we travel. Our facilities are fantastic, we’re treated with respect by the athletic staff, and there’s a lot of support between teams. It’s been mentioned before that we don’t have packed stadiums that other great universities have and that is something that I’d have like to have experienced in college… but then I wouldn’t have been able to pursue soccer at the college level. </p>

<p>If prospective students are looking for packed stadiums and tailgating and DI glory and full-rides and exhausting schedules they should look elsewhere. If not, I encourage them not to discard U of C without examining our athletic program a little closer.</p>

<p>P.S. Cue7, thank you for all your input on the U of C. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts.</p>

<p>Kafkadream - Sure, there are academically weaker schools that also have floundering D1 programs, but the kids still party like there’s no tomorrow. What I was pointing out in my observations about sports (or other extra-curriculars) at Chicago is that the REASON why Chicago sports on the DIII level is - on the whole in terms of results - mediocre is because of the mantra of the college. As I said in my previous post, Chicago - by its structure and history - compels its students to be students FIRST and foremost. At the schools you mention that are weak academically and weak athletically, a LOT of students still attend the college to, well, have a really good time. Academics are a part of their lives, but especially at weaker schools, I don’t think the academic tradition is as emphatic. So you’ll still get thousands of kids who like to get drunk and watch their bad basketball team at George Mason or Northeastern or wherever. Again, whenever I participated in or watched sports at Chicago, my main thought is “here are some smart kids who happen to like doing X.” </p>

<p>Marcellad: You bring up some outstanding points. I completely agree with you, but I feel your assertions need to be qualified a bit. At Chicago, sports are a wonderful and enriching activity FOR THE athletes, but I just wouldn’t call certain teams or traditions a hallmark or signature of the institution. I remember that most of my athlete peers at Chicago had close ties to their team, they all practiced hard, and they all enjoyed their time together. It was a great experience for them. These sports, however, at the end of day, don’t really impact the institution as much, so there’s really not much accountability on the athletics front. So if Chicago is #65 or #20 or #85 in the Sears Cup rankings, no one really cares. On the other hand, at other schools, sports stand as a more of a signature of the institution. If Williams all of a sudden dropped to #65 in the Sears Cup rankings, or if Princeton’s crew and squash teams plummeted towards mediocrity in terms of poor results, you can bet heads would roll at those institutions. </p>

<p>At Chicago, as you said and I’ve said, you are a student-athlete with an emphasis on the STUDENT part of that phrase. This is because the sports teams don’t really serve as a hallmark of the institution. These teams provide the interested participants with a wonderful opportunity to be a true scholar-athlete, but I don’t think administrators really care much if the volleyball team is struggling or if the baseball team struggles. At other schools, the stakes are just higher. The Michigan football players are basically full-time athletes, as are the Princeton rowers or Duke basketball players, because these sports concretely augment the identity of their respective institutions. </p>

<p>With all this in mind, the nature of sport at Chicago vs. other places is different. At Chicago, you usually have a discrete group of supporters and athletes more or less playing for the good of the team. At other schools, you’re playing for the greater community, the good name of the school, for sometimes hundreds of thousands of alumni - so it becomes more of a spectacle. In this vein, I don’t think sports really permeates the overall student experience at Chicago. Even when I was at Penn, I went to some of the big ivy games - when Penn plays Princeton in basketball, or an ivy championship soccer game, and the stakes and quality is just a lot higher, and, accordingly, a more pleasing spectacle to watch and get involved in for an afternoon. People care about the result, alums come back to watch, it’s just a different experience. I’m sure for the athletes, there are a lot of drawbacks to this. Most of the athletes know they are at Penn or Princeton to play ball, not because of their academic abilities. At Chicago, most of the athletes coulda gotten into Chicago without as much sports experience.</p>

<p>So, in sum, there are certainly benefits and drawbacks to both approaches. I think the situation at Duke or Stanford leads to a more robust sense of school spirit and student involvement in sports on a macro level, but in a lot of ways, does not serve a particular athlete well in his/her attempts to be a balanced student-athlete. On the other end of the spectrum, the Chicago approach serves the athlete well, but sports don’t really impact the overall scene at Chicago in even remotely the same way. </p>

<p>So, for the prospective student-athlete, yes, by all means, consider Chicago carefully. For the student considering the student life offerings at Chicago, however, (as the OP was doing), please note that the Chicago academics-heavy approach lends to a generally more subdued scene. Again, in my two years at Penn, I had countless more “WOW” moments when I went to or participated in extra-curricular events. The student performances were generally better, the athletic competitions were more intense, and the school is known for a range of offerings outside of academics - from innovative a capella groups to watching future olympians compete at the Penn Relays to whatever else. When comparing these schools, then, I would say Chicago’s honed and focused approach to academics leads to a more enriching academic experience, whereas Penn’s environment features a more robust and entrenched (and traditional) social scene. </p>

<p>Again, this all depends on what a certain applicant may want. For me, I didn’t necessarily want the rah-rah lets get drunk together on the quad feeling, and I didn’t particularly care that we don’t have future professional athletes walking around Hyde Park. At times, I do wonder how life would have been if I participated in that, but I know myself - I don’t drink heavily at all, and the experience would probably grow stale very quickly for me. I much much prefer the more subdued atmosphere at Chicago, where I could do whatever I wanted, and there was no one particular emphasis on social life at U of C. On the other hand, one can certainly make a case that for most 18 yr olds, a college life filled with pulse-pounding parties and world-class concerts and the like makes for a better experience. To each his own - prospective students just need to know what they’re getting with Chicago. Penn, Duke, Emory, Wash U, Northwestern, etc etc. all have near-interchangeable experiences, but Chicago really is still quite distinct from most of its peers.</p>

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<p>I’d be lying if I said this last part of your post didn’t catch me off guard and confuse me…</p>

<p>I’d love for you to explain what you mean by getting my “butt kicked” at Chicago or any college relatively in the same category. You may hate me for my methods and the relative ease which I live and go through school but it seems presumptuous to me for you to assume I wouldn’t be able to handle going to any of these colleges. As I mentioned in my previous post, I may not have mentioned it or emphasized it but obviously academics plays/played a big role in my college decisions and thus I think it’s reasonable to assume they do in my life as well. The difference is simply a matter of effort expended and “love” for school which apparently some students have. I expend as little effort as possible for maximum results and you will probably never catch me in the library if I don’t have to be. Sorry to disappoint you but the reality is, my habits and methods have been rather successful for me. If you think my lack of effort or my attitude makes me undeserving of such success…well, I really don’t have any advice for you. Maybe buy yourself a lotto ticket and see if you have more luck having your wishes come to fruition there. </p>

<p>However, I do believe we’re getting off track from the main topic which really more of had to do with the social experience at Chicago rather than this expos</p>

<p>I think anything I could say has already been said in some form, but let me say a few things.</p>

<p>First, the most difficult challenge for me at Chicago socially was not the lack of social activities or parties or somesuch, but rather, it was getting myself to do them. I’m an odd person in that I engage myself in very social extracurriculars that require a good understanding of social nuance and some extroversion (namely, theater), but I am painfully introverted outside of it. My first year I was being invited to do social things left and right with both my house and University Theater, and I almost unilaterally elected to stay in my room, watch movies, and eat Ramen Noodles. It kinda stank. I loved the week and would dread Friday and Saturday nights.</p>

<p>(During my first year, my one good friend noticed my social janus-ness, and said something to the effect of, “Gaw, unalove, just go to a party and pretend you’re on stage ALL THE TIME while you’re there.”)</p>

<p>I would say that by halfway through my second year I developed a network of people whom I felt very comfortable with outside of structured activities. This network has expanded considerably, but still remains smallish. Without revealing too much about myself, suffice it to say that my network includes a lot of University Theater people, a lot of members of a club sport, a lot of social activists, and a lot of Scavvies. And I do attend parties from time to time-- of both the wild sweaty dancing and the talking philosophy over wine varieities. This is a wild improvement from what I had in high school, which was five close friends and rarely hanging out in a group, because three of them distinctly disliked each other.</p>

<p>What I’ve found disappointing about Chicago socially is not the number of, attendance at, or decentralization of parties. Rather, I’ve found some of my own limitations disappointing, and I recognize that no school could fundamentally change who I was as a first-year college student. If I could do it all over again, I’d be much more gung ho about spending time in the lounge, reaching out to people, inviting myself along, even. However, I do credit Chicago with helping build me up socially and giving me more social confidence by putting me within proximity of others who are like me.</p>

<p>If you, OP, are already coming in with a certain level of social panache, you may be pleased to hear that you are in the majority and I am in the minority, even at the University of Chicago. What I think you’ll gain from Chicago is a relatively satisfying social life on the boozerly front combined with a superb all around experience. I can say that relatively confidently because nearly everybody I know here has been overall very, very, happy with their experience. And even when you’re staring fifth week of winter quarter in the eye from the belly of the A-Level. the thought of going anywhere else leaves you cold.</p>

<p>OP: JHS doesn’t need the lotto ticket, just fyi ;-)</p>

<p>However, JHS has a point-- many, many, many students get into great colleges because high school was EASY for them. That’s kind of the point. Just realize that once you get to college, you’re going to meet a TON of people who are just like you, except smarter.</p>

<p>I do not criticize you for your study habits-- in fact, if anything, I think they’ll help you adjust to college easily. You’ll learn how to skim when you have to and you’ll learn how to write papers without agonizing over them. That’s good.</p>

<p>However, the attitude isn’t going to make you friends in college, exactly. Just do your thing, go about your business, get trashed as often as you can and ace the test without telling everybody who’s doing the same thing about it.</p>